[NL2-NL10] nl10 KK fr

    • DrDunne
      DrDunne
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.12.2010 Posts: 3,338
      hey, how should i have played this differently? i felt like i made a few mistakes, i'm just unsure of what i should have done. 3bet AI on the flop maybe? it really did feel like he was set mining but i think he could have played like that with JJ/QQ or something as well... maybe AT and maybe even a straight and flush draw so would pushing all in be okay as protection?

      Grabbed by Holdem Manager
      NL Holdem $0.10(BB) Replayer
      SB ($3.90)
      BB ($1.79)
      UTG ($12.92)
      Hero ($11.50)
      UTG+2 ($3.35)
      CO ($10.15)
      BTN ($22.51)

      Dealt to Hero K:diamond: K:heart:

      fold, Hero raises to $0.40, fold, CO calls $0.40, fold, fold, fold

      FLOP ($0.95) T:spade: 4:club: 9:club:

      Hero bets $0.68, CO raises to $1.86, Hero calls $1.18

      TURN ($4.67) T:spade: 4:club: 9:club: J:spade:

      Hero bets $2.96, CO raises to $7.89 (AI), Hero calls $4.93

      RIVER ($20.45) T:spade: 4:club: 9:club: J:spade: 8:heart:

      Hero shows K:diamond: K:heart:
      (Pre 92%, Flop 83.1%, Turn 3.4%)

      CO shows Q:heart: K:spade:
      (Pre 8%, Flop 16.9%, Turn 96.6%)

      CO wins $19.45

      no more nl10 for me for a while :f_frown:
  • 8 replies
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Hello DrDunne,

      Well, even if you Call the flop I don't really get the idea why do you donk the turn? You ain't gonna accomplish much with it. His line even on flop is very strong where I might consider folding right there while being OOP. Also even if I consider going for a Call then there is no way I am going to donk the turn but rather just Check/Fold, now even more 2pairs are possible and meanwhile you don't beat much.

      Doubt he is playing AT or anything similar that aggressively, rarely happens, unless he is spewing his money away or either a bad player.

      Best Regards.
    • DrDunne
      DrDunne
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.12.2010 Posts: 3,338
      okay thanks for the evaluation veriz.

      was looking around and roopopper was in a similar situation and you told him to get it in on the flop when he was checkraised. should i have got it in on this flop here?

      so basically, if we are raised on the flop and we are OOP, we want to play check/fold turn if we only hold a pair/overpair?
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      was looking around and roopopper was in a similar situation and you told him to get it in on the flop when he was checkraised. should i have got it in on this flop here?

      Well, there was a bit different case. He was in 3bet pot and for him there was no good card on turn. He was pretty much committed but you ain't. If he would have called he would have already invested ~50% of his stack. But you after the Call ~20+%. Therefore I don't like get it in while he will have hard time to continue with a lot worse and at the same time you isolate yourself against very strong holdings. But obviously depends as well on the opponent we take him.

      so basically, if we are raised on the flop and we are OOP, we want to play check/fold turn if we only hold a pair/overpair?

      Well, we could as well even Bet/Fold it right on flop, even with overpair. Since it will be hard for us to continue on turn anyways. Most likely I'd consider Check/Folding in this specific spot, no point to continue, as you see a lot of hands manage to complete by now. Like 78/JT/KQ and etc...
    • DrDunne
      DrDunne
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.12.2010 Posts: 3,338
      yeah i see what you mean. okay, thanks for the insight veriz! mental note taken.
    • Lang7
      Lang7
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.08.2010 Posts: 2
      First off, going by your initial thought process on his play, I don't think JJ or QQ play it this way very often. With 3 players left to act behind him it's much more common you'll see a re-raise put in because players at this limit don't want to see over/scare cards come off, have no idea where they are and be forced to fold their strong pocket pairs.
      Another point I'll make is you haven't included any PFR/VPIP stats - you should always look back and find out what these are and include them in the report, as it definitely helps any other posters. The more stats/reads you can include, the more defined the feedback will be, and the more beneficial for yourself as a learning player.

      Your raise pre-flop is fine, 4x is standard from early in almost any cash game. When he calls from the CO the majority of the time you'll see bad/average players show up with any pocket pair, suited connectors, medium-strong aces and broadways. Better players will usually re-raise a good chunk of that range to isolate, but for now I'll assume this guy was an average player.


      Obviously being out of position on a flop that wet isn't too desirable and I'd definitely go for a c-bet here given your EP range is so strong. I think I'd have preferred a slightly bigger bet, maybe around $0.75-0.80. It sounds like I'm nit picking but regardless of betting 2/3 or 3/4 of the pot here, any worse hands are going to fold, so it makes sense to bet a little more to make him pay if he's drawing. That way, if a blank comes on the turn, you can happily barrel, take the pot down quite often and you'll have made yourself a little extra money.

      His flop raise is...interesting. When you see a play like this at these limits, when your opponent raises you and it's not even a 2.5x raise, it tends to be with very strong hands - usually sets or nut/strong flush draws that try to give you really good odds to continue with the hand. Having said that, 9Ts is definitely another possibility, but again that goes back to the PFR/VPIP stats not being here. I'd really need those numbers to make an accurate guess at whether he's got those kind of hands in his calling range.

      When he does raise, I think your best play is to just come over the top and 4-bet. The stacks are kind of awkward because of his strange raise but given the board is so draw heavy, I think I prefer a shove. You don't want to have him flat call and see a bad turn card come off, especially given you're OOP. If he calls a shove and has a set, it's a cooler, and on the flop I don't think you can get away from the hand.


      Once the J:spade: comes on the turn, I think your hand becomes a check-fold. That board is just getting scarier and scarier, and I don't see many players betting there with worse than two pair. Most worse single pairs are probably going to prefer a check for pot control, so I think you're more than likely beat if he bet out there, and almost always beat if he raises.
      I guess you could make an argument for betting into him because the club draw missed, but you're still behind to any two pair or set and they're just going to jam over the top of you anyway. Once he raises, it's a clear fold, even if you do have most of your stack committed.

      Having said that, his play there is absolutely dreadful on every street. Pre-flop he should have 3-bet you in position, and that raise on the flop with a gutter is, frankly, disgustingly bad play. The only real mistakes you made were flatting his flop raise and choosing to bet-call the turn, when, in my eyes, it's a clear check-fold.



      This is just one of those cases where you take the beat, safe in the knowledge that this big, juicy salmon will be giving those profits straight back to some other fine member of the poker community. :f_confused:
    • Tosh5457
      Tosh5457
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.01.2008 Posts: 3,062
      Originally posted by veriz
      Hello DrDunne,

      Well, even if you Call the flop I don't really get the idea why do you donk the turn? You ain't gonna accomplish much with it. His line even on flop is very strong where I might consider folding right there while being OOP. Also even if I consider going for a Call then there is no way I am going to donk the turn but rather just Check/Fold, now even more 2pairs are possible and meanwhile you don't beat much.

      Doubt he is playing AT or anything similar that aggressively, rarely happens, unless he is spewing his money away or either a bad player.

      Best Regards.
      But if the turn was a blank, would the donk be ok? It protects from draws.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      But if the turn was a blank, would the donk be ok? It protects from draws.

      Well, the problem then would be that you are ahead then as well on flop if you consider donking the turn. Then rather just 3bet right on flop than Call him. I am not a huge fan of investing like $3 on turn and then even folding if he ships.
    • Lang7
      Lang7
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.08.2010 Posts: 2
      But if the turn was a blank, would the donk be ok? It protects from draws.
      It's debatable. On a blank turn you're only really going to fold out drawing hands. Any hands that had you beat on the flop are still beating you and you're leaving yourself open to a very bad situation.
      If you bet the blank turn and your opponent shoves, what are you going to do? Their line is so strong; the range they're repping has you absolutely crushed, and there's no way you can make the call.

      Donking the turn not only makes this a losing play when they actually have a hand, but it also allows the opponent to shove when they don't have a hand and turn it into a very believable bluff.
      I have to add, at 10NL, there's very few people who could pull off a bluff like that, and probably even less who would be able to recognise it as a legitimate bluff on a blank turn.

      The best line, whether the turn is a blank or a scare card, is to try and check (or check-call) and hopefully get to a showdown for cheap.