[NL2-NL10] NL5 FR AA on BB

    • clandestineAl
      clandestineAl
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.06.2010 Posts: 569
      Could I have folded the river with him betting out?


      Known players:
      Position:
      Stack
      SB:
      $2.07
      Hero:
      $6.63

      0.02/0.05 No-Limit Hold'em (8 handed)
      Hand recorder used for this poker hand: PokerStrategy.com Elephant 0.102 by www.pokerstrategy.com.

      Preflop: Hero is BB with A:spade: , A:club:
      6 folds, SB raises to $0.15, Hero calls $0.10.

      Flop: ($0.30) 8:heart: , 8:club: , 6:diamond: (2 players)
      SB bets $0.25, Hero calls $0.25.

      Turn: ($0.80) 5:diamond: (2 players)
      SB checks, Hero bets $0.53, SB calls $0.53.

      River: ($1.86) 7:club: (2 players)
      SB bets $0.65, Hero calls $0.65.

      Final Pot: $3.16

      Results follow (highlight to see):
      SB shows a full-house, sevens full of eights (7h 7s)
      Hero shows (As Ac)

      SB wins with a full-house, sevens full of eights (7h 7s)
  • 14 replies
    • Kaitz20
      Kaitz20
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      Hi,

      Could I have folded the river with him betting out?
      - after slowplaying pf and on the flop I don´t think you should fold river. he may decide to valuebet small himself overpairs+ sometimes he may decide to bluff his missed diamonds.
      You also get quite good pot odds.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Hello clandestineAl,

      Preflop: Why do you Call here? Do you plan to go for set mine here? Or what was your idea behind the Call. I'd still raise it. You don't have to raise very big, ~$0,35 should do it vs his stack. He might even ship over you with any hands, most likely he is also going broke looser. But do we really want to give the mid-stack respect just for the reason that he is short and let him hit the flop? I mean why should we? Not saying it's wrong but I don't like to give respect for those mid-stacks. His stealing range is anyways rather strong, so we can expect very often to see him even to continue.

      As played
      Postflop: Well, exactly that even happens. :D After his line you most likely don't beat much while you can at the same time just fold the river too. Doubt that he is betting in this spot ever with worse than a straight. I mean why should be value-bet JJ or any other hand while he didn't do that on turn? He had to protect his hand on turn, didn't he? There ain't gonna be many hands which you beat and according his W$SD it's even more likely that he ain't betting without 4x/9x/66/55/77/8x -> you see a lot of combos beat you, although you don't beat much of his combos.

      Best Regards.
    • Kaitz20
      Kaitz20
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      Against 9/7 I don´t mind call pf, since sb vs bb he would likely raise/fold close to 80% and if he has strong pp then you can always get all your money in postflop. I doubt clandistine called pf to hit set of aces.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by Kaitz20
      Against 9/7 I don´t mind call pf, since sb vs bb he would likely raise/fold close to 80% and if he has strong pp then you can always get all your money in postflop. I doubt clandistine called pf to hit set of aces.
      His stealing range is ~7% = 77+,AJs+,KJs+,AQo+

      And you really think he is going to fold 80% of the hands? Please give me the hands he is folding.

      Stealing range: 77+,AJs+,KJs+,AQo+ - 6.94%

      Most likely the tightest range which goes broke: JJ+, AK - 3.02%

      I don't really see how you can say 80%?
    • Kaitz20
      Kaitz20
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      I believe that even nit would open sb vs bb wider range than you said.
      To me it is like 22+, A5s+ QTs+, JT+ (basically all broadway hands)
      Shove range seems fine to me.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by Kaitz20
      I believe that even nit would open sb vs bb wider range than you said.
      To me it is like 22+, A5s+ QTs+, JT+ (basically all broadway hands)
      Shove range seems fine to me.
      But even then it's not 80% of his range is going to fold. :)
    • Kaitz20
      Kaitz20
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      ok 80% was a little big number, but he would raise/fold there imo more than half the times (since it is hard to have setup for example AA vs KK/QQ) so slowplaying and just calling pf can´t be bad.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by Kaitz20
      ok 80% was a little big number, but he would raise/fold there imo more than half the times (since it is hard to have setup for example AA vs KK/QQ) so slowplaying and just calling pf can´t be bad.
      Well, I didn't say anything about him folding less than 50% of his hands. I said just I don't like to give respect for those stack sizes. You don't have to make a normal raise against them, you can raise it as well ~$0,35 even. I mean if you are going to play vs mid-stack against this then you would also consider going to play against full stacks against this nitty opponents? Of course it's not a case where it's totally off to Call preflop but should we really play it this way and Call even a spot where we most likely will never be ahead postflop?
    • Kaitz20
      Kaitz20
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      well we get 3.86:1, so question is if we are ahead 20%.
      If you don´t see any worse hands taking that line, then it should be always fold. I am personally not sure he would not bluff or valuebet worse hands, so I´d call to first get information and second I might be still ahead there with aces against small bet.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by Kaitz20
      well we get 3.86:1, so question is if we are ahead 20%.
      If you don´t see any worse hands taking that line, then it should be always fold. I am personally not sure he would not bluff or valuebet worse hands, so I´d call to first get information and second I might be still ahead there with aces against small bet.
      Why should he bet with bluff there? Against our line, never-ever you will see a bluff here, NEVER from a passive player, even an aggressive player I doubt would pick such a line. And I am still asking you, why ain't he value betting any PPs on turn?
    • Kaitz20
      Kaitz20
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      He is not shoving, but betting 65 cent.
      And about your question I don´t know why players would take their pot control lines (although agree then I would then should expect him to bet out river, but since it is 1/3 pot he may easily blockbet instead of seeing river shove)
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by Kaitz20
      He is not shoving, but betting 65 cent.
      And about your question I don´t know why players would take their pot control lines (although agree then I would then should expect him to bet out river, but since it is 1/3 pot he may easily blockbet instead of seeing river shove)
      Well, for him it's practically the same. He must also know that he ain't gonna get value from worse hands anyways if he "shoves" and at the same time he ain't gonna make fold any better hands. By the shove I meant his bet overall = practically shove, he ain't gonna block-bet there with hands like 67/pairs/PPs. And once again, he is way too passive to ever bet there with those hands, he would just Check/Fold most likely for the given stack sizes.
    • philhellmutt
      philhellmutt
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.02.2011 Posts: 225
      I love it when judges fight...:D
    • Kaitz20
      Kaitz20
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      yeah, discussion is hard, but hopefully it lead better to better decisions. Anyhow agree to veriz- if we can´t see any hand that might bet/bluff we have to fold, but basically against unknown I would not fold there aces, since I don´t want to make herofold spot where imo is chance he can blockbet worse hands hands.

      Veriz see that he would valuebet 100% worse hands- to me it seems like good board to bluff or bet small to go showdown rather than c/c or c/f against shove.