[NL2-NL10] NL100 QQ just after I doubled up

    • nttflox
      nttflox
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2007 Posts: 673
      Full Tilt Poker
      No Limit Holdem Ring game
      Blinds: $0.50/$1
      7 players
      Converter

      Stack sizes:
      UTG: $80.90
      Hero: $47.70
      MP1: $209.55
      CO: $20
      Button: $17.50
      SB: $15.45
      BB: $120.80

      Pre-flop: (7 players) Hero is UTG+1 with Q Q
      UTG folds, Hero raises to $4, 3 folds, SB raises all-in $15.45, BB calls, Hero raises all-in $47.7, BB calls.

      Flop: K 3 6 ($110.85, 1 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $46.35, Sidepot 1: $64.5)


      Turn: Q ($110.85, 1 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $46.35, Sidepot 1: $64.5)


      River: K ($110.85, 1 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $46.35, Sidepot 1: $64.5)


      Results:
      Final pot: $110.85

      First of all you can ignore SB reraise. He was just pissed cause I doubled up from him after he sucked me out on turn and I resucked out on river ;) I'm guessing BB also knew this and I took his call as a not so premium hand.

      1.How would you play this?
      2.What would you do if BB reraised?
  • 12 replies
    • Berliner1982
      Berliner1982
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.07.2006 Posts: 5,644
      On a 7-handed table its ok. If BB reraises here, I fold, since he is reraising against an UTG raise and SB re-raise All-In.
    • xylere
      xylere
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.05.2007 Posts: 2,939
      If BB is in the pot, because of his table observations (found SB being possibly weak), then we have to consider that he is aware of our strategy. He coldcalled from BB, after you made initial raise from UTG+1, after doubling up. The thinking player will enter a pot (in this spot) with a cold call for only one reason - to trap.
      That`s what you have to consider, imo.

      If he reraises, you should probably fold, given that opponent is unknown.
    • drachdudek
      drachdudek
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.11.2007 Posts: 656
      Probably BB has premium monster....i would C/F in this case after flop...
    • drachdudek
      drachdudek
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.11.2007 Posts: 656
      sorry correction..i didnt see that you went all-in :D preflop...nothing to do in this case if you went all in but usually after double up i dont play in such case...fold preflop...
    • SpiriteWalker
      SpiriteWalker
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.02.2008 Posts: 22
      I can agree that the SB looked suspiciously 'steaming' with his all-in in this situation. (Given the previous hand results)

      My problem is the actions of the BB. Even if he was paying attention, and felt that the SB was steaming, he had to know that Hero would still be able to act after his play, and a 'call' after a raise/ re-raise can't be done with less than A-A when there are players left to act, IMO??

      If the BB had K-K and 'called', he would have to seriously consider folding after Hero re-reraised all-in, unless Hero's table image was one of a near-maniac LAG?? I think the BB made an error in not going all-in pre-flop right there and putting pressure on Hero, because even A-A loses value against more than one opponent? (No offense intended by the 'near maniac LAG' observation, Sir.) :D

      The thing about nttflox's observation that "[I] took his call (BB) as a not so premium hand" doesn't make sense to me in this instance, unless the BB was also a pretty weak player?

      What did the BB actually have in this hand?

      For Hero to re-reraise all in here was either a very loose play, or nttflox had a pretty good sense of how the BB played that was not detailed in the hand comments? However, I do agree that Hero only had two options here, fold or all-in, and it worked out because the board cooperated.

      This hand is a very good example of how 'situational' the game really is. Using the 'Hindsight is always 20/20' advantage, I think if I were Hero I would also have considered how good/bad the cards were falling for me that session before deciding to commit all my chips to Q-Q in that situation?

      Regards,
      SpiriteWalker
    • nttflox
      nttflox
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2007 Posts: 673
      Thx for your posts. I guess I was lucky there, SB had 77 and BB had JJ.
      I just had a similar hand involving two unknown this time. I'd like to think I learned something and played it better. Here it is:

      Full Tilt Poker
      No Limit Holdem Ring game
      Blinds: $0.50/$1
      9 players
      Converter

      Stack sizes:
      Hero: $19.50
      UTG+1: $40.35
      MP1: $144.10
      MP2: $96.50
      MP3: $150.35
      CO: $26.30
      Button: $30
      SB: $4
      BB: $97.30

      Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is UTG with Q Q
      Hero raises to $4, UTG+1 raises to $10, 2 folds, MP3 calls, 4 folds, Hero folds.

      Flop: J 5 K ($25.5, 2 players)
      UTG+1 is all-in $30.35, MP3 folds.
      Uncalled bets: $30.35 returned to UTG+1.

      Results:
      Final pot: $25.5
    • drachdudek
      drachdudek
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.11.2007 Posts: 656
      NH you played it well here:) ...
    • xylere
      xylere
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.05.2007 Posts: 2,939
      This one is a bit different. Here you have some fold equity, so I would push here
    • nttflox
      nttflox
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2007 Posts: 673
      Well I said similar and I guess you didn't take a look at the stacks.
      I didn't doubled up here. I can only reraise to 20 and I don't see any fold equity. Am I wrong here?
    • xylere
      xylere
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.05.2007 Posts: 2,939
      yeah, I didn`t notice the stack size, but the 20BB stack makes push the only correct decision. You can`t really fold here, odds are too high.
      Your stack doesn`t create much of a fold equity, of course. But you still have some positional one. If UTG has JJ+, AK, he will likely reraise big or fold (with the bottom cards of his range), so I don`t see them both calling, unless MP has KK+, which might be the case, as we discussed earlier, this type of play is very strange. But with 20BB stack you don`t have much of a choice against unknowns as to push and make notes afterwards.

      Anywayz, I`ll leave this thread unjudged, so Berliner can have a look
    • SpiriteWalker
      SpiriteWalker
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.02.2008 Posts: 22
      I like your decision to fold here, nttflox...

      By the time it came back around to you preflop, there was $24.00 in the pot. You were getting 4:1 odds to call the remaining $6, but that would have been the wrong play since you were 7.5:1 against flopping your set.

      You had $15.5 remaining in your stack. Going all in would bring the pot up to $39.5, giving 2.5:1 odds to UTG1. I would expect UTG1 to feel the pressure, since now he would also be forced to go all-in with his remaining $30.35 or fold, because MP3 was yet to act and had shown some strength by calling UTG1's reraise.

      IF UTG1 did go all in, the pot would then be near $70, giving MP3 almost 2.5:1 odds to make the call, and you end up in a 3 way and your Q-Q just got a lot smaller in value.

      The thing I like about your fold here is that you were not invested at that point, and you recognized the danger of two other hands claiming to be Premium holdings.

      On the flop, UTG1 went all in, representing at least one K, and making you a 9:1 dog if he did have it. Hard to find any profit in making plays that leave you in a pair vs. overpair situation and all your chips already in the middle.
    • Berliner1982
      Berliner1982
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.07.2006 Posts: 5,644
      I like the fold here after we got a raise from UTG+1 and a cold call after a re-raise here.

      Lets assume we would push here, then at least one of them will call, but their is also a huge chance that both will call.

      loose Range
      UTG+1-Range: TT+, AK
      MP3-Range: 99+, AQ+

      Equity
      Hero: 35%
      UTG+1: 35%
      MP3: 30%

      So in that case we would make a +EV Push.

      But I guess we more have to give them at least these ranges (loose):
      UTG+1-Range: JJ+, AK
      MP3-Range: QQ+, AK

      Equity
      Hero: 29%
      UTG+1: 30%
      MP3: 41%

      BE-Push

      And with tight ranges:
      UTG+1-Range: QQ+, AK
      MP3-Range: QQ+ (AK is not in his range, since he has no Implied Odds)

      Equity
      Hero: 11%
      UTG+1: 32%
      MP3: 57%

      - EV Push

      Even if we get only called by one, we are very often dominated.