Turbo MTT specific strategy

    • darkpenance0
      darkpenance0
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.10.2010 Posts: 156
      I play a live game every Thursday, the field varies from 20-40, you start with 3000 chips and the blinds go up as follows

      1. 25/50 15m
      2. 50/100 15m
      3. 75/150 15m
      4. 100/200 10m
      Break
      5. 200/400 12m
      6. 300/600 12m
      7. 400/800 12m
      8. 600/1200 10m
      Break
      9. 800/1600 10m
      10. 1000/2000 10m
      11. 1200/2400 10m
      12. 1500/3000 10m
      13. 2000/4000 freeze

      So you pretty much have to approach it as a turbo game, you usually get an orbit of 8 players before the blinds go up but sometimes less so your under massive pressure to accumulate chips.

      I've looked through the strategy articles ut the MTT strategy seems to all be for slower deeper formats and so arent relevent for beating this game on a regular basis.

      I've experimented with styles ranging from super tight to super loose but have only had mixed success. I don't really play turbo online so my online strategy doesnt really help much with hand ranges etc.

      Are there any videos which an help my game here? or does anyone have any advice to help me beat this game?
  • 6 replies
    • IngridN
      IngridN
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.03.2011 Posts: 12,162
      I moved your thread into the correct board darkpenance :)
    • ExternalUseOnly
      ExternalUseOnly
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.01.2010 Posts: 3,373
      Ok here comes a super fishy reply :)

      Are the people that play the same people each week? If so you must be getting some pretty good reads on them by now right? So you can steal off the nits and and just play for value against the crazy people.

      If you dont have many reads i guess play pretty tight and play some good push/fold when the blinds get higher,

      Gl in the next one and i hope someone else comes along and gives you better advice
    • EuanM
      EuanM
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.05.2011 Posts: 531
      Hey darkpenance,


      Thanks for your question.


      These tourney's are usually run at Gala casinos, on Thursday's :f_biggrin:

      I know there's one here, a so-called "freeroll" each Thursday which has exactly the same structure.

      Fifteen minute blind levels in a live tourney, I would even go as far to describe that as "Super-Turbo", especially if you work out the hands per hour. These tournaments should be played as such, but there is one problem:

      Lack Sample-size, of course created due to the infrequent occurrence of this tournament.

      I do know players who grind Super-turbo, and they do this in-line with calculations they make during the play, which is not so easy to do inclusive of the ICM in a live game.

      It's simple an unfortunate case, that in a live game, this concept is not so easy to employ effectively, over a large sample size, and for this reason including the quick blind levels, is not profitable, only the casino will make money here, because, as far as I'm aware, this is a re-buy tournament. If I'm incorrect, let me know the buy-in's, but over here they are as follows.

      Am I correct in thinking?:

      * £/$ 5 to enter, this is 100% insta-rake.
      * Prize pool only consists of re-buy's
      * If you start with 3k, you have double-rebought, as the £5 gives you 1500.
      * Most Villains double-rebuy from the beginning.

      When I first encountered this, I figured it was pretty crazy, but I think these guys may have a point to their style of play; double-rebuys so they got you covered, then shove or fold from the outset to apply pressure to their opponents.

      Shove or fold from the beginning, with the intention to rebuy could be the best line, concluding your tournament with the same style of play, and in-between playing A-game.


      I've played around four or so of these tournaments, always running moderately deep, but never cashing. I simply am not convinced they are profitable, what further re-enforces this idea for me is that most poker players I speak to that I consider to know their poker of course, avoid these things like the plague.

      The only value I personally see from these tournaments is getting used to playing in live games coming from behind a computer.


      Hope to hear from you, let's discuss!


      Take care!

      -E
    • EuanM
      EuanM
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.05.2011 Posts: 531
      Originally posted by ExternalUseOnly
      Ok here comes a super fishy reply :)

      Are the people that play the same people each week? If so you must be getting some pretty good reads on them by now right? So you can steal off the nits and and just play for value against the crazy people.

      If you dont have many reads i guess play pretty tight and play some good push/fold when the blinds get higher,

      Gl in the next one and i hope someone else comes along and gives you better advice

      I totally agree with ExternalUseOnly in this case, if you do actually frequent this tournament, make the best of the reads you have & make notes about your opponents & the hands, study the game itself for this particularly strange yet common variant.

      If you find ways to exploit other people at the event, you will create an edge for yourself & with a bit of Run good, you could even hit the final table and cash!

      Good luck to you!
    • darkpenance0
      darkpenance0
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.10.2010 Posts: 156
      Thanks for the feedback.

      I've played about five of these and see some regulars but only about 6 who seem to play every one, I've got a decent idea of how they play.

      Am I correct in thinking?:

      * £/$ 5 to enter, this is 100% insta-rake.
      * Prize pool only consists of re-buy's
      * If you start with 3k, you have double-rebought, as the £5 gives you 1500.
      * Most Villains double-rebuy from the beginning.
      thats the one, everybody pretty much rebuys straight off the bat which is what I do as well, no point leaving yourself short stack before youve even played a hand right?

      Shove or fold from the beginning, with the intention to rebuy could be the best line, concluding your tournament with the same style of play, and in-between playing A-game.
      So your saying you shold have 2 moves, shove it or fold it, I havent tried that approach. The problem with that as I see it is if your shoving when the blinds are at say 50/100 with I dunno KJ, your only gonna get a caller from someone who has KJ beat so at best you'll take the blinds which are only 150 and at worst your gonna bust and at the same time if you just shove aces arent you going to lose huge value? Could you not accomplish the same thing as pushing by 4xing when the blinds are low and then 3xing when medium and 2.5xing when high? That way you leave yourself some fold equity if action goes nuts around you.

      I've played around four or so of these tournaments, always running moderately deep, but never cashing. I simply am not convinced they are profitable, what further re-enforces this idea for me is that most poker players I speak to that I consider to know their poker of course, avoid these things like the plague.
      Well they are not ideal but its a relatively cheap buy in, I'd much rather play a deeper format but because of work and such I cant really play deep tournaments as often as I'd like. With these you know that it will be over at most within 5 hours which suits a player like me who cant really afford to play a game till 2.00 a.m and it does give you good experience of live play.

      Are there players who dominate super turbo online games? I mean if I could cash in 60% and win 20% I'd be more than happy with that. Or are they as I fear essentially just a crap shoot?
    • EuanM
      EuanM
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.05.2011 Posts: 531
      Well if you don't re-buy straight off the bat, and a large percentage of the guys have double your stack, the only plays that make sense are to shove or fold the relevant range, as you'll be shortstacking when the blinds go up.

      The thing about super turbos is they have intense variance due to the fast blind structures, so to crush them online is tough enough, and you need to have your own play cracked to make it profitable.

      To do it in a live tournament is a whole different story, which basically means, the casino tourney is a crap shoot, playing overly aggressive & shoving or folding from the second the blinds go up may very well be the most profitable way to play these, and by profitable, I mean over a decent sample size, which is not possible to attain in live-play, as it takes far longer than playing online.

      It is an attractive tournament to play for the reasons you mentioned, you know it'll be over soon. Bear in mind it's designed by the casino to appear attractive, but it is more or less a lottery. Again, they are IMO fantastic to build up your live experience, as its relatively cheap + nice format to play. We need to appreciate this from the casino's perspective, which is: If the blind structure would be any slower, we couldn't expect a reasonably large field to exist during the tournament. In the case that the blinds would increase slower, equally so would the expected player quality, as we expect them to recognize that slower blind structures are more profitable. Equally so, we expect player quality to decrease along with any decrease in time between blinds.

      It is for this reason, that a shove or fold game will be profitable, only shoving for a top percentage of your hands if your deep stacked makes sense. And when blinds increase to decrease your BB's, open your range slightly when, for example, shoving on weak blinds.


      My advice:


      1. Minimize BI losses: Don't insta re-buy, take your 1500 and try to double it up, if you manage to do this, your already ahead as you still have your rebuy (I know it's unlimited, I'm taking in terms of total Rebuys purchased) On the back of this, if you bust, just leave & wait until the next week. Additionally, set a stop loss for your Re-buy limit, one or two per week for example.

      2. I'm pretty sure when the blinds increase they double the amount of chips received when re-bought (£15 for 3k, instead of £10 for 1.5k), although I don't know if the blind increases make it unprofitable to play tight until this stage, most likely.


      The tricky thing for me, and most interesting, as well as what makes these tournaments most attractive is basically the gamble involved. Players with MTT experience will know what needs to be done to make these profitable, which is shove or fold a lot, over a huge sample size. Again, not possible to attain in live poker in a short time, especially with weekly tournaments. Best thing to do is learn how your opponents play, make reads on them, etc.. You need to consider if the amount of effort put into this tournament is worth the amount to be gained from it. It depends on where you are / how many people are re-buying, as this affects the size of the prize pool. Take note of anyone playing shove or fold, and stay away from them, until your deep & final tabled, otherwise, you'll most likely get put out more often than not. Of course, call them all-in with nice hands, and in the meantime, just try to bully the weaker players & crush them, take their re-buys in the form of chips instead of buying them from the floorman ;)


      My advice if you want to get serious about MTT's;

      1. Play the £5 tourney each week for live-practice, if you cash it's a bonus. Keep in mind there is a low chance of cashing in this frequently
      2. Study our MTT materials
      3. Play the £50 Freezeout the Gala run on a Sunday, with the slow blind structures. (We expect player quality to increase here of course, & keep bankroll management in mind, £50 is a steep buy-in)

      One thing to watch for: I was playing in the Gala in Spain, and a loud, young, what I considered to be spewy at the time, Spanish guy, had position on me, so we built some rapport, played some pots, but he was a tough player & I remember noting this to take care in future after I busted him. Right enough, next time in there, this same guy is a Poker dealer, employed by Gala.

      I'm not sure what their policy on this is, but keep your eye out for it. As I'm sure you can imagine, Poker dealers are quite good at Poker.

      Take care - If your hitting the freeroll tonight, let me know how you get on.

      All the best,

      -Euan