[NL2-NL10] NL25: K6o Freeplay

    • ManniXXX
      ManniXXX
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.09.2007 Posts: 707
      Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 9 Players
      LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

      MP2: $15.45
      CO: $5
      BTN: $29.70
      SB: $4.75
      Hero (BB): $5
      UTG: $30
      UTG+1: $25.25
      UTG+2: $16.45
      MP1: $3.45

      Pre-Flop: K:club: 6:spade: dealt to Hero (BB)
      4 folds, MP2 calls $0.25, 3 folds, Hero checks

      Flop: ($0.60) 6:diamond: Q:spade: J:spade: (2 Players)
      Hero bets $0.40, MP2 calls $0.40

      Turn: ($1.40) 9:diamond: (2 Players)
      Hero checks, MP2 checks

      River: ($1.40) K:spade: (2 Players)
      Hero checks, MP2 bets $1.50, Hero folds

      Results: $1.40 Pot ($0.05 Rake)
      MP2 mucked and WON $1.35 (+$0.70 NET)

      Any 10 beats me and the flush draw gets there, but does SSS require that I play 2 pair aggresively in this spot even with the board looking so dangerous?
  • 17 replies
    • Watto77
      Watto77
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.12.2007 Posts: 206
      You should be playing c/f on the flop. Leading out with bottom pair is bad news as you have a trash hand and cannot play unless you have top pair with A or K kicker.

      Forget about what happened after the flop. You need to re-read the basic articles again regarding flop play.
    • nttflox
      nttflox
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2007 Posts: 673
      I wouldn't lead on this flop, because you don't want to play marginal hands and it's a board that can easily hit him. I guess a fold on the river is ok, given his big bet.
    • xylere
      xylere
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.05.2007 Posts: 2,939
      I guess you should call the river. The board is ugly, but I think you will win in 33% of the time, on this limit.
      Flop play is a bit too agressive. Flop bet in unraised pot is fine, but you shouldn`t do it without a reason, only on appropriate board and against appropriate opponents (high fold to flop bet). The position of open limper matters a lot.
    • ManniXXX
      ManniXXX
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.09.2007 Posts: 707
      I don't think the initial flop leak is enough grounds to disregard the river situation entirely, it's possible that villain would of checked to the river anyway given his check on the turn. So I don't think I'll be forgetting about what happened after the flop, cheers.
    • Gremlin68
      Gremlin68
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.08.2006 Posts: 345
      Originally posted by xylere
      I guess you should call the river. The board is ugly, but I think you will win in 33% of the time, on this limit.
      Flop play is a bit too agressive.
      I agree totally, even if I tend to play this way on the flop also, working on reducing it.

      A twopair on this limit I would call, he could play any Kx that doesn't beat my two pair. (As always my kind of play, always like to be corrected if having a thinking error) :)
    • Watto77
      Watto77
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.12.2007 Posts: 206
      Originally posted by ManniXXX
      I don't think the initial flop leak is enough grounds to disregard the river situation entirely, it's possible that villain would of checked to the river anyway given his check on the turn. So I don't think I'll be forgetting about what happened after the flop, cheers.
      My point is that if you knew and played the strategy correctly you wouldn't have got yourself into the situation that you did which is a bad one and one that you should be avoiding in every situation. Play correctly and what happened after the flop in this hand won't happen again which will make it easier for you
    • Gremlin68
      Gremlin68
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.08.2006 Posts: 345
      Originally posted by Watto77
      Originally posted by ManniXXX
      I don't think the initial flop leak is enough grounds to disregard the river situation entirely, it's possible that villain would of checked to the river anyway given his check on the turn. So I don't think I'll be forgetting about what happened after the flop, cheers.
      My point is that if you knew and played the strategy correctly you wouldn't have got yourself into the situation that you did which is a bad one and one that you should be avoiding in every situation.
      exactly. better to leave one difficult hand too early than to stay in it with big losses.

      A bad fold is always better than a bad call (don't know who said this but I try to remember and it saves money) ;)
    • ManniXXX
      ManniXXX
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.09.2007 Posts: 707
      Originally posted by Watto77
      Originally posted by ManniXXX
      I don't think the initial flop leak is enough grounds to disregard the river situation entirely, it's possible that villain would of checked to the river anyway given his check on the turn. So I don't think I'll be forgetting about what happened after the flop, cheers.
      My point is that if you knew and played the strategy correctly you wouldn't have got yourself into the situation that you did which is a bad one and one that you should be avoiding in every situation. Play correctly and what happened after the flop in this hand won't happen again which will make it easier for you
      Originally posted by ManniXXX
      it's possible that villain would of checked to the river anyway given his check on the turn.
      Furthermore, what this exact villain did is irrelevant. it's still possible that i could end up on the river in the same position, after having both checked the flop and the turn.
    • Watto77
      Watto77
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.12.2007 Posts: 206
      All you need to know is that playing this hand this way is not even close to being profitable playing SSS or BSS in the long run.

      It is possible that you end up at the river in the same position playing c/f but the difference is you aren't any worse off because you didn't bet the flop, turn or river.
    • ManniXXX
      ManniXXX
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.09.2007 Posts: 707
      Originally posted by Watto77
      All you need to know is that playing this hand this way is not even close to being profitable playing SSS or BSS in the long run.

      It is possible that you end up at the river in the same position playing c/f but the difference is you aren't any worse off because you didn't bet the flop, turn or river.
      Okay, that's all I need to know. Anything else would be information overload. How could my unprofitable mind deal with that much information!

      Seriously though. Get rid of the flop bet and leave all the other information intact. Villain now bets $.70 into a $.60 pot. The pot odds are practically the same and it would be completly relevant. Why you insist on focusing on the flop play so much is beyond me when my question from the start has been about the river.
    • prinstripe
      prinstripe
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.01.2008 Posts: 60
      They are just given you a helpful information to be profitable one. Even though you are concern about the river only, but it is possible to understand the pre-flop play. If you have unprofitable mind better stop playing poker.
      Note: The decision is still yours.
    • Watto77
      Watto77
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.12.2007 Posts: 206
      Your question was,

      "Does SSS state that I should play two pair aggressively in this spot?"

      The answer is that SSS states you should never be in this spot. Why would you need to know how to play a situation when it is in your interest not to get into the situation in the first place. Your goal is to never put yourself in this situation in this hand again...

      Go and read the basic articles again, particularly;

      http://www.pokerstrategy.com/strategy/no-limit/215/4/
    • ManniXXX
      ManniXXX
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.09.2007 Posts: 707
      Originally posted by Watto77
      Your question was,

      "Does SSS state that I should play two pair aggressively in this spot?"

      The answer is that SSS states you should never be in this spot. Why would you need to know how to play a situation when it is in your interest not to get into the situation in the first place. Your goal is to never put yourself in this situation in this hand again...

      Go and read the basic articles again, particularly;

      http://www.pokerstrategy.com/strategy/no-limit/215/4/
      Are we speaking the same language? Because you seem to be making the same point over and over, without actually giving consideration for what I'm saying.

      I'm going to type in bold and nicely space all my points evenly, in an attempt to make some progress :)

      Yes, as you have now pointed out a total of 3 times, the play on flop was not played according to SSS. You have well and truly established this. Congratulations.

      Now let's define the river situation loosely;

      On the river, Hero makes 2 pair on a dangerous board and villain bets out slightly over potsize, Hero can now call or fold.

      You say that this situation would never arise if optimal flop play was followed. I disagree (I actually disagreed a few posts up, feel free to scroll up).

      I disagree because:

      The situation on the river is not dependant on what happens on the flop. I hesitate to repeat myself, however, If Hero had checked the flop, villain could of checked the turn, hero could of checked behind and suddenly.... we're at the river and Hero has 2 pair. The only variable here is the size of villains river bet. But if we assume this to be slightly over pot size again, like in the actual example, the pot odds remain the same hence the situation on the river is the same.


      I hope that last paragraph was ok to read, it was quite a long one. Hopefully you can follow it alright and we can make some progress, otherwise I think it might be pointless continuing this healthy discussion as we appear to be going around in circles :)
    • TerrorBlade
      TerrorBlade
      Black
      Joined: 16.10.2007 Posts: 1,922
      I'm not sure if this overbet implies he's trying to snipe the pot or that he has a really good hand but wants to get lots of value out of it (or hes just bad).

      I'd probably fold the river here.
    • xylere
      xylere
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.05.2007 Posts: 2,939
      yeah, folding the river is definitely the option. However, I think there is a chance that in 33% of the time you will see Kx, Qx or pockets.
    • xylere
      xylere
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.05.2007 Posts: 2,939
      Watto77, ManniXXX, stop arguing, please)
      We are here to discuss hands, so let`s stick to it)

      ManniXXX, I hope you found the answers to your questions, if not feel free to ask any additional onces)
    • primorac
      primorac
      Black
      Joined: 06.04.2007 Posts: 12,414
      blockbet/fold River?