5CD Facing aggressive players in the BB

    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 8,915
      Got whacked hard tonight.
      Part of it was having my big hands meet bigger ones, but another large part was that I folded a lot of big blinds that I usually got to play for free.

      I was in the BB 38 times in 202 hands.

        10 walks -- really weird. I usually get only a couple. Fortunately, I had crappy hands anyway, so I'm glad of this.
        15 checked pre-draw. Of those I hit two pair (A/Q) only once, bet and was beaten
        1 raised pre (won)
        1 called a raise from SB w/ pr of J and lost
        11 times though I was in the BB with a reasonable hand to draw with, but folded to some one (or more) raising pre. I think that this might be a leak

      It seems to me that if someone raises, and gets a caller, I now have proper odds to draw 1 to flush or OESD -- right? I folded 4 of these. Hmmmm.....
      Seems to me I will usually call here.

      Another thing,
      In the BB if you have a 4-flush pre-draw, including a small pair, it seems to me that you have better odds drawing to the flush.
      Drawing 3 to the pair, you have 7.7:1 to hit trips, and if you are facing raises, that is about all that will help, and since they are a small pair, if you are facing trips, you are often drawing dead anyway.
      Flush is 4.22:1, with a much better chance of being top dog at showdown.

      What do the experts say?

      I also just HATE playing 2 pr against a horde of limpers. If there are enough people in the pot, the odds of one of them hitting gets too high.
      What am I looking for when sitting on the BU facing 2 or even 3 limpers?
      In the BB I can just check, of course.

      Looking forward to your thoughts,
      --VS
  • 8 replies
    • jbpatzer
      jbpatzer
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2009 Posts: 6,944
      Originally posted by VorpalF2F
      It seems to me that if someone raises, and gets a caller, I now have proper odds to draw 1 to flush or OESD -- right? I folded 4 of these. Hmmmm.....
      Seems to me I will usually call here.
      Yes. You have the right odds to call here.



      I also just HATE playing 2 pr against a horde of limpers. If there are enough people in the pot, the odds of one of them hitting gets too high.
      What am I looking for when sitting on the BU facing 2 or even 3 limpers?
      In the BB I can just check, of course.
      If you're playing a game where there's lots of limping you will win lots of $$$. Just play a tight value range and watch them pay you off. I'd raise two or even three limpers from the button with two pair and just try to check it down if you don't improve. If three people are limping their draws your two pair is going to be best about 50% of the time postdraw, and you're paying 1BB to win 3BB assuming they all call, so that's hugely +EV. Even if they're all drawing to pairs, they still won't improve about 40% of the time and you will 8% of the time, and it's still profitable. Just make sure you fold most of the time if one of them leads into you. Passive fish who limp and then lead into 3 or more callers aren't bluffing.
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 8,915
      Originally posted by jbpatzer
      Just make sure you fold most of the time if one of them leads into you. Passive fish who limp and then lead into 3 or more callers aren't bluffing.
      This got me thinking,

      So I took my entire Pokerhands hand history, and imported it into Excel to see where I was losing.
      The "Post" in the image title refers to "Post EVGalois", because pre-EVGalois, the numbers are all different.

      Limit: $0.10/$0.20



      Note: the first row means won/lost pre-draw.

      I'll have a closer look at some of the categories later, but some things just leap out.
      The X/F are probably BB freeplays that missed, so no surprises there.

      I'm losing a lot when calling other's AD bets. I'll have a close look here, and try to determine what range I should fold, and which I should raise.
      It looks like I'm checking behind or being checked behind a lot. I can likely turn some of those into Bets profitably. I'll start with the "median" hands that EVG mentions in his articles -- raise the higher ones, and fold the < median ones. Dang that is going to take discipline.

      One category that is totally missing is check-raising. I'm wondering if some of those lead-off bets might have been better as check-raises. I'll watch for aggro opponents and do a few. I'm guessing that some of those check-down hands might have been intended to be check-raises. Also, a judicious number of check raises might help reduce the check-folds, and let me see some showdowns I am missing now.

      Losing 3/5 RR looks bad, but the 3 losses were all FHs losing to better ones.
      Two of those were pat hands losing to draw 3s Not much can be done about those.

      I suspect that at higher limits my good category -- where I lead out after the draw, get called and go to showdown -- won't happen as often at higher limits. First off, people won't call me w/ crap as much, and they will raise me more.

      --VS
    • jbpatzer
      jbpatzer
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2009 Posts: 6,944
      Didn't understand the numbers at all. :(
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 8,915
      Sry, the first column is after-draw action
      X: Check
      F: Fold
      C: Call
      B: Bet
      R: Raise
      #W & #L is number of hands won/lost
      $W & $L is amount won/lost
      So the chart shows how much I'm winning / losing when I do certain things.

      Do you use PokerHands when playing 5CD?
      That's where the numbers and actions come from.
    • jbpatzer
      jbpatzer
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2009 Posts: 6,944
      Originally posted by VorpalF2F
      Sry, the first column is after-draw action
      X: Check
      F: Fold
      C: Call
      B: Bet
      R: Raise
      #W & #L is number of hands won/lost
      $W & $L is amount won/lost
      So the chart shows how much I'm winning / losing when I do certain things.

      Do you use PokerHands when playing 5CD?
      That's where the numbers and actions come from.
      OK. It's hard to interpret. PokerHands (yes I do use it. Essential to have a HUD imo) is pretty rubbish for analysing stats if you're used to Holdem Manager.
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 8,915
      Originally posted by jbpatzer
      is pretty rubbish for analysing stats if you're used to Holdem Manager.
      Agreed, thus the use of Excel.

      I have a worksheet where I look at win/loss by AD hand type and another by position.

      I had a look at some of the hands where I'm only calling, not raising, and in most of the cases I looked at, they were low 2-pr hands when the opp drew 1 and bet out. I looked at winners and losers, most winners were busted flushes/straights and most winners were made ones. Big problem with pokerhands is that it does not record the winning hand, so you have to go back to the replayer to see what beat you.

      Some of the hands I lost were people drawing one holding trips, which beat my two pair. I'll have to be wary of that.
    • Huricano
      Huricano
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.08.2010 Posts: 2,228
      If you have a hand like pair+flushdraw, think of your showdown value...

      If three players limp and you're on SB with 2 :spade: 2 :heart: A :spade: K :spade: 7 :spade: you have 0 shd value so complete and go for a flush.

      If two players limp and you have A :diamond: A :club: 3 :club: 7 :club: 4 :club: raise this shit up and go for Aces.

      If you open Q :club: Q :heart: 5 :heart: 3 :heart: 2 :heart: from CO and BB call you go for QQ always.

      If you open A :club: J :diamond: J :club: 3 :club: 2 :club: from CO, gets 3b by BU who 3bets nothing worse than go flush. (however it's marginal - you will hit 2p+ 28% and flush 19% but you may lose with JJup or even JJJ and flush have some IO)

      Think of your showdown value and don't destroy it if you're ahead.
    • jbpatzer
      jbpatzer
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2009 Posts: 6,944
      Originally posted by Huricano
      If you have a hand like pair+flushdraw, think of your showdown value...

      If three players limp and you're on SB with 2 :spade: 2 :heart: A :spade: K :spade: 7 :spade: you have 0 shd value so complete and go for a flush.

      If two players limp and you have A :diamond: A :club: 3 :club: 7 :club: 4 :club: raise this shit up and go for Aces.

      If you open Q :club: Q :heart: 5 :heart: 3 :heart: 2 :heart: from CO and BB call you go for QQ always.

      If you open A :club: J :diamond: J :club: 3 :club: 2 :club: from CO, gets 3b by BU who 3bets nothing worse than go flush. (however it's marginal - you will hit 2p+ 28% and flush 19% but you may lose with JJup or even JJJ and flush have some IO)

      Think of your showdown value and don't destroy it if you're ahead.
      This all sounds v sensible to me. :f_thumbsup: