[NL20-NL50] 44 - flopped nuts

    • ancha666
      ancha666
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      Joined: 30.01.2008 Posts: 169
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      9 players
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      Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is SB with 4 4
      UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, 4 folds, Button calls, Hero calls, BB checks.

      Flop: 6 6 4 ($1, 4 players)
      Hero bets $1, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, Button folds.

      Turn: :10s ($4, 3 players)
      Hero ?


      I put villain on 6 so I was thinking about check-raising to get more value - ok?
  • 8 replies
    • Eclipt
      Eclipt
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.05.2007 Posts: 755
      If he really has 6-x, you are ending up all-in anyway, regardless of line you choose. However, he might also have 7-7, 8-8, 9-9, 4-x and he might fold to a bet on turn, so check/raising to get value from these hands seems fine to me.
    • Faye6891
      Faye6891
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.11.2007 Posts: 1,234
      I think this is a good board for slowplay on the flop... no?

      Anyway, as played, I think check/raising the turn is fine.
    • aciddrop
      aciddrop
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      Joined: 08.10.2006 Posts: 1,519
      I don't like to slow play when I have the bottom end of the boat, so to speak. It is a strong hand, but will lose to any other six 25% of the time, so giving a free card is a bit dangerous. If you offer a free play here, the six might also check, believing they have the strongest hand, looking to slow play. You don't want that to happen.

      If you check and don't get a call because no-one is holding the six, then most likely you aren't getting much action after this either, so trying to build a pot now is my preferred option.

      On the turn you have two opponents and betting about 2.5 here would be the way I would go. From a six now, you will get action, and can get all in. The T might even fancy his chances now as well.

      If you were holding 66 here on a flop of 644, that is a different matter. Then, you would only lose 5% of the time to a four, so trying to trap with that could be very lucrative.
    • Faye6891
      Faye6891
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      Joined: 09.11.2007 Posts: 1,234
      Regardless of the 25%/5% thing. You're probably going all-in anyway if someone has a six. So I don't think it really matters if you lose 25% or 5%. But I may be wrong.

      I like slowplaying because it's a multiway pot and the turn could bring a FD and/or a SD to someone else, and you could extract value from those.
    • Thorsten77
      Thorsten77
      Black
      Joined: 28.05.2006 Posts: 12,896
      Bet: if he has a 6, he will raise you... If he has a pocket, he may check behind, but call your bet
    • aciddrop
      aciddrop
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      Joined: 08.10.2006 Posts: 1,519
      [quote]Originally posted by Faye6891
      Regardless of the 25%/5% thing. You're probably going all-in anyway if someone has a six. So I don't think it really matters if you lose 25% or 5%. But I may be wrong.
      quote]
      I came to my conclusion after flopping JJ4 with a pp of 44. Being UTG, it looked like a good flop to slowplay, and it was multiway, with five opponents. It checked all the way around, so I bet out on the turn card, which was an Ace. UTG+2 raised, and we got all in, and of course he had limped AJ, and slow played the flop.

      Now this is why I make the differentiation. I was hot favourite, but somewhat vulnerable to a free card. The other guy no doubt thought he was best, so slow played for the same reason. Now we were going all in, both of us, no matter what. The difference is, I had a chance to get some, and who knows, maybe all of my money in the pot on the flop, when I was actually in front. As it happened, I got all my money in when I was behind and drawing near enough to dead, and giving the free card made that more possible.

      Consider if I had JJ on a flop of J44, with him holding A4. We'll get all in, but I am going to win close to 96% of the time. Here I welcome the turn coming an A, because we are definitely all in right there.

      The thing about the difference here, to me anyway, is that while I am 96% in one hand, and roughly 75% in the other, they are not even close. With 75% he is 3:1 dog, with 96%, he is 24:1 dog. A free card in the first case is likely to have a significant impact on winnings. You will lose one time in four, so the money needs to go in as soon as possible. Giving a free card when you will win 24 out of 25 times is ok.

      This is what I think, and why, anyhow.
    • Faye6891
      Faye6891
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      Joined: 09.11.2007 Posts: 1,234
      I understand what you meant. But I don't think it really matters in this situation, because he was going all-in anyway even if the ace didn't show up on the turn.
      He had 4 outs and hit one of them on the turn, If you had gone all-in on the flop he'd still hit one of his outs. You could even get him to go all-in on the river unimproved (supposing his stack is not too big and/or he's pretty aggressive). So I don't think it makes any difference giving a free card or not because he's going all-in improving his hand or not.

      It's different when villain is on a gutshot, he still got 4 outs. But he won't call you unimproved on the river. So you have to get his money in while he still has some chance to catch up.

      That's what I think, hope it's not too complicated to understand what I'm trying to say.
    • aciddrop
      aciddrop
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      Joined: 08.10.2006 Posts: 1,519
      No, I see what you're saying ok. By the same token, when I get my money in while I am in front, I have made a winning bet, regardless of what the outcome is. Getting the money in when I am beaten is losing under all circumstances. Based on that, it matters to me to try and get it in as early as possible with the more vulnerable hands.