[NL2-NL10] NL10 QQ bvb

    • Meemawuk
      Meemawuk
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.05.2009 Posts: 758
      I prefer to 4-bet shove these spots since I would do the same with AK and people will often call with hands like TT/JJ somtimes worse like AQ. Is value 4-betting better bvb?

      Known players:
      Position:
      Stack
      Hero:
      $11.98
      BB:
      $8.3

      0.05/0.1 No-Limit Hold'em (6 handed)
      Hand recorder used for this poker hand: PokerStrategy.com Elephant 0.102 by www.pokerstrategy.com.

      Preflop: Hero is SB with Q:heart: , Q:diamond:
      4 folds, Hero raises to $0.30, BB raises to $1.00, Hero raises to $11.98 (All-In), BB calls $7.30 (All-In), Hero gets uncalled bet back (All-In).

      Flop: ($16.60) J:diamond: , 9:spade: , 8:diamond:
      Turn: ($16.60) 9:heart:
      River: ($16.60) K:diamond: (2 players)


      Final Pot: $16.60

      Results follow (highlight to see):
      Hero shows (Qh Qd)
      BB shows four-of-a-kind, nines (9d 9c)

      BB wins with four-of-a-kind, nines (9d 9c)
  • 14 replies
    • Mauzer77
      Mauzer77
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.03.2008 Posts: 1,926
      Hi!

      I never 4bet shove against 100bb reg bvb, because:
      (sometimes it can be good, but not bvb I think)

      1: he cannot light 5bet with weaker hands, like 77-99 or KQs, Axs, and he is folding most of these to your shove

      2: you never 4bet shove bluff, so its faceup that you have AK or high pp

      So I prefer 4betting to 2.2-2.3.
    • Meemawuk
      Meemawuk
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.05.2009 Posts: 758
      Originally posted by Cukk
      Hi!

      I never 4bet shove against 100bb reg bvb, because:
      (sometimes it can be good, but not bvb I think)

      1: he cannot light 5bet with weaker hands, like 77-99 or KQs, Axs, and he is folding most of these to your shove

      2: you never 4bet shove bluff, so its faceup that you have AK or high pp

      So I prefer 4betting to 2.2-2.3.
      Not sure what games you're playing but guys will never 5-bet bluff/light here at NL10 and they'll never 5-bet bluff worse for value. What they will do is call off their stack with with 99-JJ and AQ/AK because fish hate to fold these hands all in preflop. I'm sure people are more inclined to fold when the raise is so obviously for value. I am sure guys are folding QQ and AK to 2.5x 4-bets.

      I'm interested to see what Veriz thinks
    • Mauzer77
      Mauzer77
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.03.2008 Posts: 1,926
      I am interested too.

      Against a fish shove is better obv. I talked about an average, agressive reg. I have seen lots of light 5bets, most of them were at nl25, but its almost same.

      I think 4bet shove is better for example:

      You raise UTG, 2-3 callers, BB sqz, you shove instead of 4bet 2.5x. This spot shove seems weaker.
      BVB I dont like 4bet shove at all.

      " I am sure guys are folding QQ and AK to 2.5x 4-bets"

      I dont agree at all.
    • Wacko118
      Wacko118
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.06.2009 Posts: 300
      I agree with Cukk,

      Your shove in a bvb situation screams look at me I have the nuts...

      a raise to 2.5 or 2.6 means that you still have enough behind that you could fold your hand. This gives your opponent some fold equity so he can raise. If occasionally you bluff 4 bet, and fold, then this means they will often shove into you light and you can happily stack off.

      Generally people are happy to shove light.... but vast majority hate to call off all their chips light.

      And people at nl10 do bluff 5 bet, i have stacked off against a couple of regs who i saw shove a stack with 53s and similar hands cos i had been bluffing a lot.


      And for the record, anyone who folds QQ or AK preflop vs 1 opponent in any circumstance is Super Bad, with the exception of them having some serious reads.

      Also it is not fishy to stack off with JJ in a bvb situation. I would even stack off with 99 if i thought the guy was particularly loose.
    • Meemawuk
      Meemawuk
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.05.2009 Posts: 758
      I honestly think guys are more likely to call off their stack with TT/JJ/AQ and in this situation even 99, because they think "he wouldnt shove with a big hand here so he must be bluffing". I'm not saying it's optimal against all players, But I think it is the best line against most NL10 players. You both seem to think guys have 5-bet bluffing ranges at NL10 (or even worse are 5-bet shoving hands like 99-JJ in position for value? after getting value 4-bet), and you're definitely wrong. You might catch one or 2 ranom bluffs but it is not standard practice.

      The only time I see 4-bets and 5-bets are when the min 4-better gets min5-bet and then theres a min 6-bet and its all in AA vs KK.

      I think people are giving most NL10 players too much credit.


      Edit: additionally, most players arent thinking about fold equity at NL10. They are literally thinking, he reraised my reraise so either I have a hand I like, or I dont. Giving them a decision for their stack only makes it look more bluffy.
    • Mauzer77
      Mauzer77
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.03.2008 Posts: 1,926
      I see what you mean, but I still prefer a normal 4bet size.

      1: With shove your hand is almost faceup, you won't 4bet bluff so.

      2: He can still 5bet with TT-JJ-AQ or light, or call you with a lot of worse hands, which he would fold to your shove, like KQs, KJs, AJs, 9Ts, QJs etc. (have seen this a lot of times).
    • yaxkukmian
      yaxkukmian
      Bronze
      Joined: 24.12.2007 Posts: 2,020
      Arguments for normal 4bet:

      - he might only call preflop with JJ, TT, or some random overcards.
      - he might think you're bluffing so he could try 5bet bluff. NL10 players don't do it often but this is battle for the blinds so it is possible

      Arguments for 4bet-shove:

      - you disguise your hand and it looks like AK or some AQ or so. Players might be more inclined to stack off with more hands than they are ready to call normal 4 bet. I've seen people doing with 77+ on NL10

      So it depends on situation. From time to time it should be ok to do that, but I'm still advising normal 4betting IP. I 4bet with speculative hands and also with good hands. While I might shove only with good hands so I might loose some value from players who are willing to call my 4bet and play postflop OOP.
    • Wacko118
      Wacko118
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.06.2009 Posts: 300
      4bet to 2.5x is, imo, much better.

      If you 4 bet shove your hand is essentially face up as AK+ and any sane opponent is usually folding less than QQ.

      Whereas if you 4 bet to 2.5x then it implies you could still fold, you have 85BB left and if he were to shove you would not have enough equity to call with less than say AQ this means he now can have a bluffing range or at least he reckons he can happily shove his TT or 99 all in which you have crushed.

      The shove just screams strength and i dont see how it can be considered to look bluffy shoving a stack.

      Also even at NL10 i dont think anyone is calling a 4bet pre, they are shoving or folding. And if you leave the decision up to them i feel they will shove weaker than they will call.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Hello Meemawuk,

      Well, the problem with 4bet shove is that you will never have bluffs in your range this way. Most likely only value hands. For that given part I'd definitely make a normal 4bet there so we could 4bet-bluff as well sometimes. Plus obviously you will give him hard time to Call vs you with a lot worse.

      Best Regards.
    • Meemawuk
      Meemawuk
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.05.2009 Posts: 758
      Originally posted by veriz
      Hello Meemawuk,

      Well, the problem with 4bet shove is that you will never have bluffs in your range this way. Most likely only value hands. For that given part I'd definitely make a normal 4bet there so we could 4bet-bluff as well sometimes. Plus obviously you will give him hard time to Call vs you with a lot worse.

      Best Regards.
      Do you really think we need to balance our 4-betting range at NL10 vs most players? I feel like when I 4-bet small he never thinks "i have fold equity vs his 4-bet bluffs here" and when I 4-bet shove he thinks "he looks like he doesnt want a call, and my hand is so strong I cant fold".
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Do you really think we need to balance our 4-betting range at NL10 vs most players? I feel like when I 4-bet small he never thinks "i have fold equity vs his 4-bet bluffs here" and when I 4-bet shove he thinks "he looks like he doesnt want a call, and my hand is so strong I cant fold".

      Well, it's not only about balancing but rather as well about inviting weaker hands to continue. If you ship like that then what do you think what's his continue range here?
    • Meemawuk
      Meemawuk
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.05.2009 Posts: 758
      TT+ and AQo+ as stated before. This guy calls it off with 99. If I 4-bet small, I dont think I get the stack of 99/TT/JJ, and I'm confident AQ would fold too.

      Maybe I'm being suspicious, but in pots where there is a small 4-bet, I very rarely see guys 5-bet shoving like JJ/TT. I also dont see as many AAvs QQ races as I see AA/KK. This is why I honestly think guys will sometimes fold QQ. Maybe I'm imagining this.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by Meemawuk
      TT+ and AQo+ as stated before. This guy calls it off with 99. If I 4-bet small, I dont think I get the stack of 99/TT/JJ, and I'm confident AQ would fold too.

      Maybe I'm being suspicious, but in pots where there is a small 4-bet, I very rarely see guys 5-bet shoving like JJ/TT. I also dont see as many AAvs QQ races as I see AA/KK. This is why I honestly think guys will sometimes fold QQ. Maybe I'm imagining this.
      Well, obviously it's not a mistake to ship it like that if you assume he will Call you anyways with such a loose range. Vs his stack doesn't even matter that much.
    • Wacko118
      Wacko118
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.06.2009 Posts: 300
      @ Meemawuk

      you are definitely imagining this, my experience playing nl10 must be massively different to yours.

      No one folds QQs unless there is some ridiculous action before them.