[NL2-NL10] TTs

    • Bogdan1190
      Bogdan1190
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.04.2009 Posts: 406
      iPoker - $0.04 NL - Holdem - 5 players
      Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

      Hero (BB): $4.00
      UTG: $5.10
      CO: $1.58
      BTN: $6.38
      SB: $7.73

      SB posts SB $0.02, Hero posts BB $0.04

      Pre Flop: ($0.06) Hero has T:diamond: T:spade:

      fold, fold, BTN raises to $0.12, fold, Hero calls $0.08

      Flop: ($0.26, 2 players) Q:diamond: 2:spade: 7:spade:
      Hero checks, BTN bets $0.19, Hero calls $0.19

      Turn: ($0.64, 2 players) T:heart:
      Hero checks, BTN bets $0.48, Hero raises to $1.56, fold

      Hero shows T:diamond: T:spade: (Three of a Kind, Tens)
      Hero wins $1.50
  • 17 replies
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      At first glance BU seems somewhat competent so c/r turn is not the best because he won't call you with less than QT, maybe KK+ if he's worse than I think. That's a very narrow range.

      That said, he is likely to bet river for thin value with Qx or maybe even air if he thinks you chase draws and they bust. His sizing also shows value so my line would be c/c turn as well since your hand is well disguised and c/r or c/c river depending on the card. I wouldn't c/r if flush completes becaue I don't expect to get called by worse but if it's a blank I expect sets and 2 pair to still cry-call, maybe even overpairs since they look so pretty. This also implies Qx and some bluffs bet river.

      If you would have the 99% sure info that he gives up Qx and bluffs on river and only bets 2p+ you could just donk river and get max value from those but I don't see this as a likely possibility.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Hello Bogdan1190,

      Well, I wouldn't either Check/Call the turn and let him get a draw for free. Not really worth. Definitely have to Check/Raise and protect your hand. I doubt people are so competent that they are folding their Qx here so easily.

      But obviously it would as well depend on the opponent, against some I might even take whole different line right on flop.

      Best Regards.
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      Originally posted by veriz
      Hello Bogdan1190,

      Well, I wouldn't either Check/Call the turn and let him get a draw for free. Not really worth. Definitely have to Check/Raise and protect your hand. I doubt people are so competent that they are folding their Qx here so easily.

      But obviously it would as well depend on the opponent, against some I might even take whole different line right on flop.

      Best Regards.
      What free card? He bet, there's no free card.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      Originally posted by veriz
      Hello Bogdan1190,

      Well, I wouldn't either Check/Call the turn and let him get a draw for free. Not really worth. Definitely have to Check/Raise and protect your hand. I doubt people are so competent that they are folding their Qx here so easily.

      But obviously it would as well depend on the opponent, against some I might even take whole different line right on flop.

      Best Regards.
      What free card? He bet, there's no free card.
      This is practically the same. He doesn't have to pay with his draws while he gets fold equity + card on river and can decide whatever he does there. :) Check/Call line is the worst line here. Any draw/Qx may easily pay you.
    • MrMardyBum
      MrMardyBum
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.03.2009 Posts: 2,206
      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      Originally posted by veriz
      Hello Bogdan1190,

      Well, I wouldn't either Check/Call the turn and let him get a draw for free. Not really worth. Definitely have to Check/Raise and protect your hand. I doubt people are so competent that they are folding their Qx here so easily.

      But obviously it would as well depend on the opponent, against some I might even take whole different line right on flop.

      Best Regards.
      What free card? He bet, there's no free card.
      It's a free card when he has already placed the bet... by Check/raising, then villain is forced to pay more for the draw.... Instead of just staking the bet he felt comfortable paying while on his draw..

      Check/raise forced him out of the pot rather than letting villain control what he wanted to pay to hit his FD or w/e.
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      Originally posted by veriz
      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      Originally posted by veriz
      Hello Bogdan1190,

      Well, I wouldn't either Check/Call the turn and let him get a draw for free. Not really worth. Definitely have to Check/Raise and protect your hand. I doubt people are so competent that they are folding their Qx here so easily.

      But obviously it would as well depend on the opponent, against some I might even take whole different line right on flop.

      Best Regards.
      What free card? He bet, there's no free card.
      This is practically the same. He doesn't have to pay with his draws while he gets fold equity + card on river and can decide whatever he does there. :) Check/Call line is the worst line here. Any draw/Qx may easily pay you.
      He doesn't get FE, we have set, ldo. And c/f line with a set is worst here and c/r is the best as a bluff and worst for value because you narrow his range too much. You don't have the info that he's a total fish that stacks off Q5o or naked FD there.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      He doesn't get FE, we have set, ldo.

      How should he ever know that we have a set? :D GG Man!

      And c/f line with a set is worst here

      Check/Fold line isn't considerable is it? So we are talking about only Check/Call or Check/Raise, why do you even put Check/Fold? Would you ever Check/Fold this?

      and c/r is the best as a bluff and worst for value because you narrow his range too much.

      As a bluff? Why should I do it as a bluff? I am doing for protection which also means = VALUE from worse, which is = Any Qx/overpairs/draws. Easy Check/Raise for value.

      You don't have the info that he's a total fish that stacks off Q5o or naked FD there.

      Why should I have the info here? I don't have the info either that he is folding Qx. :)
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      Originally posted by veriz
      He doesn't get FE, we have set, ldo.

      How should he ever know that we have a set? :D GG Man!

      If he's capable of calculating FE then for sure he folds Q5 if he has it in his range.

      And c/f line with a set is worst here

      Check/Fold line isn't considerable is it? So we are talking about only Check/Call or Check/Raise, why do you even put Check/Fold? Would you ever Check/Fold this?

      If villain showed me he has QQ, yes I would fold. The point is your are saying a +EV line is worse than a 0EV line. WORST is c/f. We are debating the most +EV line.


      and c/r is the best as a bluff and worst for value because you narrow his range too much.

      As a bluff? Why should I do it as a bluff? I am doing for protection which also means = VALUE from worse, which is = Any Qx/overpairs/draws. Easy Check/Raise for value.

      Villain has narrow calling range = great bluff spot.

      You don't have the info that he's a total fish that stacks off Q5o or naked FD there.

      Why should I have the info here? I don't have the info either that he is folding Qx. :)

      He is full stacked and you c/r-ing the turn. Is that ever a bluff in a NL4 reg's mind?
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Are you just trolling? Or are you serious about your text what you write?
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      Originally posted by veriz
      Are you just trolling? Or are you serious about your text what you write?
      Answer me this:

      Can a fish calculate FE?
      Would you go AI with KK if villain showed you he had AA?
      What makes a spot good to bluff?
      What makes a spot good to valuebet?
      What is the first way you get info on your opponent whether he is loose passive or aggressive (good or bad aggressive has to be decided later ofc)?
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      So practically you are still just trolling since you already answered few or your own lines.

      Can a fish calculate FE?

      Why does he need to calculate fold equity? He just hopes to gain some fold equity there. :)

      Would you go AI with KK if villain showed you he had AA?

      Why should villain show a hand? You can't show a hand in online poker?

      What makes a spot good to bluff?

      Why should I bluff at all on NL4? While I said my assumptions are that they are going to continue with all their made hands.

      What makes a spot good to valuebet?

      Where you have a made hand as exactly is the spot we have here? :)

      What is the first way you get info on your opponent whether he is loose passive or aggressive (good or bad aggressive has to be decided later ofc)?

      What's the idea behind the question? I guess if you are good enough player then you should know yourself the answer. Or even if not then please go back to basic articles and re-read them. Which is loose-passive player and which is loose-aggressive player. One tip, the tags "loose" - "passive" say everything how you get the information.


      If you don't appreciate my work then just say that, nobody forces you to post hands if you don't like my hand evaluations.
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      Originally posted by veriz
      So practically you are still just trolling since you already answered few or your own lines.

      Can a fish calculate FE?

      Why does he need to calculate fold equity? He just hopes to gain some fold equity there. :)

      If he hopes to gain folding equity he is not betting for value. This means his range is weak, therefore our c/r only gets him to fold a ton of his range that could well bet the river as well judging by the fact that we raised preflop, bet flop and turn with decent sizings.

      Would you go AI with KK if villain showed you he had AA?

      Why should villain show a hand? You can't show a hand in online poker?

      You asked me if I'd ever fold a set there. I gave you a situation where TT vs QQ there is about the same as KK vs AA preflop.

      What makes a spot good to bluff?

      Why should I bluff at all on NL4? While I said my assumptions are that they are going to continue with all their made hands.

      A +EV bluff is good at NL4 too. There's no rules that say don't bluff at lower limits. It's just harder to correctly find those spots and the right opponents.

      A mid pair is also a made hand. Does he continue with that?


      What makes a spot good to valuebet?

      Where you have a made hand as exactly is the spot we have here? :)

      No, when you have a hand that can get called or raised by worse when you bet. If opponent folds 100% of his range you practically can't even value bet the nuts.. because he never calls or raises. That's just an extreme example that brings me to this hand.

      What is the first way you get info on your opponent whether he is loose passive or aggressive (good or bad aggressive has to be decided later ofc)?

      What's the idea behind the question? I guess if you are good enough player then you should know yourself the answer. Or even if not then please go back to basic articles and re-read them. Which is loose-passive player and which is loose-aggressive player. One tip, the tags "loose" - "passive" say everything how you get the information.

      You missed your opponents action: raise preflop, bet flop, bet turn. This makes him aggressive. Now, if he is good aggressive he will fold probably all the way down to KQ here which leaves us with a very narrow range to get value from. If his bad aggressive he has a huge bunch of bluffs there that will fold if we raise.

      1st case: he is good aggressive and will value bet for thin value and a good portion as a bluff. We can't get more value on the turn from anything weaker that he bets on the river anyway.
      2nd case: he is bad aggressive and will bluff bet most rivers and value bet weak hands. In other words, his most likely action is to bet the river regardless of his actual holding.

      The only spot where this is clearly a c/r is when he is a station because stations bet twice without a hand they're in love with.


      If you don't appreciate my work then just say that, nobody forces you to post hands if you don't like my hand evaluations.

      I appreciate you helping others. I am not the one to judge your abilities. PS.com has people in charge of that. It doesn't mean I have to agree with everything you say. I don't appreciate you not coming with arguments for your assumptions, especially when categorizing a line as the worst possible when it's clearly not.

    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Well, if you really want to do it this way and keep me away from evaluating other hands then sure we can continue to argue. But you ain't making yourself look good by this whatever you trying to do. :)

      If he hopes to gain folding equity he is not betting for value. This means his range is weak, therefore our c/r only gets him to fold a ton of his range that could well bet the river as well judging by the fact that we raised preflop, bet flop and turn with decent sizings.

      Well, I am not only telling that he is betting for fold equity, why that? Since I said he may easily have there FD/TP/overpairs? Which means his range is betting as well for value. So which for me is a standard spot to Check/Raise and ship the river then Check/Call and then what on river while being OOP? :f_biggrin: Check and see him Checking behind some Tx hand? Well played! I really love those opponents when I see such actions and what do you think who earns the most in long run? The guy who Check/Call all the way long?

      You asked me if I'd ever fold a set there. I gave you a situation where TT vs QQ there is about the same as KK vs AA preflop.

      I wasn't talking about specific hand, since there can't be only only one hand. The opponent wont show you either the hand of his. :) So there wont be ever a Check/Fold line.

      A mid pair is also a made hand. Does he continue with that?

      Well, we never know that unless we find that out. :) But I am never-ever going to just in hope him having mid-pair there. :D Once again! It's a huge leak to put opponent only one hand.

      No, when you have a hand that can get called or raised by worse when you bet. If opponent folds 100% of his range you practically can't even value bet the nuts.. because he never calls or raises. That's just an extreme example that brings me to this hand.

      Simple and easy: Those players on those limits will rarely ever fold a draw/TP/overpair and sometimes even level themselves to Call with just a midpair.

      I appreciate you helping others. I am not the one to judge your abilities. PS.com has people in charge of that. It doesn't mean I have to agree with everything you say. I don't appreciate you not coming with arguments for your assumptions, especially when categorizing a line as the worst possible when it's clearly not.

      Well, I am happy to discuss any kind of situations and hands, anyone is welcome to post any thoughts and also I am not a robot, even I can do mistakes. But if you are just going to rather troll around what seemed like you did then it's not really discussing the hand but rather trolling on my evaluation.


      Lets make it easy and simple. What you gonna do with your Check/Call on turn? You will in long run miss value from a lot hands and at the same time not protect. But just keeping some crap hands in the play which most likely are going to Check behind on turn. Easy and simple.
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897


      Lets make it easy and simple. What you gonna do with your Check/Call on turn? You will in long run miss value from a lot hands and at the same time not protect. But just keeping some crap hands in the play which most likely are going to Check behind on turn. Easy and simple.




      You missed your opponents action: raise preflop, bet flop, bet turn. This makes him aggressive. Now, if he is good aggressive he will fold probably all the way up to KQ here which leaves us with a very narrow range to get value from. If his bad aggressive he has a huge bunch of bluffs there that will fold if we raise.

      1st case: he is good aggressive and will value bet for thin value and a good portion as a bluff. We can't get more value on the turn from anything weaker that he bets on the river anyway.

      ADDED LATER: hands like Tx, JJ and other midpairs you talked about and even weak Qx fold to a turn c/r anyway so you don't get value from them nor now, nor later. Donking river can be brought up if you think he vbets thinly on turn, basically only good equity hands, and then checks them behind on river.

      2nd case: he is bad aggressive and will bluff bet most rivers and value bet weak hands. In other words, his most likely action is to bet the river regardless of his actual holding.

      The only spot where this is clearly a c/r is when he is a station because stations bet twice without a hand they're in love with.



      By raising vs an aggressive opponent here you are just turning your hand face up, giving him free information.

      This is easy and simple:

      We have an aggressive opponent. Since he is fullstacked and raised 3x preflop and has good sizing postflop we can lean towards him being somewhat of a regular.

      C/r doesn't get you value from crap because crap folds. C/r gives you value from hands that bet river anyway (good Qx, 2pair, sets). C/c lets him bluff his crap and bet his worse value hands that fold to a turn c/r anyway.

      We have a hand with which we want as much money in the pot as possible. C/c makes him put more money that's why I think c/c turn is better.
    • fusionpk
      fusionpk
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,683
      imo without any reads it's tough to determine what the best line is, because so many factors alter whether it's best to ch/rai turn or to ch/rai riv. Is villain capable of thin value betting? Is villain capable of 3 barrelling whatever he missed? How wide is villains range preflop (stats)? How does villain react to aggression/passivity? We literally have nothing.

      Ok so, what we do know, he could be a reg 'cause of stack size.
      He probably is a reg because of bet size.
      Most tag regs at this limit will barrel here any equity.
      Most tag regs will bet 3 streets good Qx.
      Most tag regs will fold weak Qx to turn raise.
      Some tag regs will bet their busto shit on R, in the hope u fold ur busto shit.
      His range is reasonably wide so he can have some stronger combos also like Q7o maybe Q2s. He will have alot of fd's also. Probably alot of gutters and also OESDs like J9.

      Now these traits are quite alot different to a fish, for example, a fish doesn't realise the strength of a turn raise, a fish isn't capable of value betting thinly, a fish doesn't think about odds and will call with incorrect odds to hit his draws, a fish doesn't have such a wide p/f range.

      Basically, I think the assumption thus far is that villain is more so reggy than fishy.

      Vs a fishy unknown plr I think it's quite clear to ch/rai turn jam any R.

      Vs a reggy unknown plr, we do have some options, certainly ch/rai turn is +EV but if we assume preflop his range is wide and all the other above points, we have alot of F/E and do we really want him to fold? Sure by raising the turn we alter his prices and he can't chase as much, but he also plays his hand completely perfectly. If we call the turn to jam the river, he makes a platitude of mistakes, he can incorrectly bluff the river, he will value cut himself an absolute bunch, and it's much more likely he will "feel comitted" to the hand with his KQ QJ etc. especially when fd busts. By calling the turn, yes we miss some value from draws, but we also play our hand perfectly in that, we can correctly value raise the river and we can correctly call the river. (Depending on rivers). We can also, get the value we missed from the draws on the turn, on the river when he makes incorrect river bluffs // thin value bets.

      All in all I don't think you'll see a difference but personally vs anyone I assume to be a fish I raise turn jam riv, and anyone I assume to be a reg I call to ch/jam most rivers.

      Of course with any reads on a regular we could be persuaded either way. I mean especially at nl4 where the games are splashier, you probably don't see too much difference, but as you get up to 10/25/50nl I think you'll start to notice these spots make more of a difference, and it starts to depend alot on reads, image & gameplan.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      C/r doesn't get you value from crap because crap folds. C/r gives you value from hands that bet river anyway (good Qx, 2pair, sets). C/c lets him bluff his crap and bet his worse value hands that fold to a turn c/r anyway.

      Oh you just don't give up. :) Most of the regs wouldn't even ever bet the river since there ain't gonna be many worse hands which pay him. :) Which would most likely be even my line: a) they are never betting when draw completes ; b) they are never betting when any scare-card comes ; c) they are mostly even taking Check-behind with something like KQ ; d) most likely he wont try to bluff as well with 3barrels - rarely people do that on NL4. :) Which will be always and never-ever for me Check/Call the turn on those limits, not even with reads. Why should I? You are totally forgetting that we are OOP not IP. :)

      I am done for now, if you really can't get the point then please continue playing if you want to play like that but I can assure that you will loose value in long run. Good luck!
    • Bogdan1190
      Bogdan1190
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.04.2009 Posts: 406
      Well now this is an evaluation :D the villen was a fish reg. i thought that the most EV+ line is to raise turn for value becouse there are more chances to call a bet on the turn then on the river becose of scare cards like a club or another queen.

      Also by raising you get the stacks in quicker and that is what you want regrdless if he will show you a queen from time to time.

      If you just call turn and call another bet on the river or you bet it yourself and he folds you lose value becouse you don't know with what hands he can call a raise or fold to one.

      Regards,
      Bogdan