[NL2-NL10] Hand Evaluation Coaching - Homework #7 8.11.11

    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Hello PokerStrategists,

      as some of you may have heard that we have a homework in each of our No-Limit Hand Evaluation Coachings.

      Here is the homework for the coaching from Nov 8, please note:

      • Everybody is invited to share his thoughts here regardless if you joined the last coaching or not.
      • Whoever is active in the homework threads can get a free database analysis by us which helps you to improve your game.

      Find the hand below waiting for you opinions and analysis posted in this thread. Furthermore do not forget to join our next coaching on Tuesday, November 15 at 6 pm GMT.

      $0.10/$0.20 No Limit Holdem
      5 Players
      Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

      Stacks:
      UTG ($20.72)
      CO ($13.03)
      BTN ($20.04)
      SB ($24.86)
      Hero (BB) ($24.06)

      Pre-Flop: ($0.30, 5 players) Hero is BB 6:heart: K:spade:
      3 folds, SB calls $0.10, Hero raises to $0.60, SB calls $0.40

      Flop: 8:club: 8:diamond: K:heart: ($1.20, 2 players)
      SB checks, Hero bets $0.60, SB calls $0.60

      Turn: 8:heart: ($2.40, 2 players)
      SB checks, Hero bets $1.90, SB raises to $3.80, Hero raises to $8.80, SB raises to $13.80, Hero goes all-in $22.86, SB calls $9.06

      River: Q:diamond: ($48.12, 2 players, 1 all-in)
  • 9 replies
    • Mopenza
      Mopenza
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 267
      flop: would bet a bit bigger, but I dont think half pot on that board is bad ether.
      turn: when he min raise my bet, I think it rly depend on opponent as we know he limp call than he could not be rly good and easy have some 8x there, but still he could do it with some Kx or some FD maybe if he is aggressive. I would call his min raise and probably call small river bet.
    • kiromanAAKK
      kiromanAAKK
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.10.2009 Posts: 4,022
      First of all, I don't understand really the raise pre-flop but that's may be related to the fact that Im still play at micros (or just because Im a fish/donk :D ).

      Btw, as played, agree with the bet on the flop when a King come down and maybe (Im not 100% sure as Im stats dependent by now :f_biggrin: ) I will play in a similar way on the Turn.

      I will be more incline to shove my self the Turn when villain raise if any stats was available. Which type of player is SB?

      Do we have any clue on his playing's style?

      Waiting for more into the discussion to add more further thought.

      P.S. As we were talking in the coaching last night, can be this the right place to go into a study's range mode?
      Can you please Coach showing how to determinate a range for villian when is unknow (like in this case I presume) or like we talking last night, in the case the VPIP and the PFR have a great gap.

      TY :)
    • Bordito
      Bordito
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.02.2007 Posts: 1,104
      Preflop: Im raising 4bb in this spot, although I have a very wide range and probably wont be beating villains calling range by far(maybe his range even beats me). But overall it doesnt really matter cause SB limper often tend to play fit or fold on the flop -> best adaption: bigger raise pre.

      Flop: Im betting like 1$ for pot building reasons.
      Turn: After he minraises its a pretty clear call. You can find arguments for clicking it back if you know villain tends to level himself or be bluffhappy. Overall against an unknown opponent call is the only option: First you dont really win hardly anything against villains non bluffing range and also you probably can expect villain to have a wide range in this spot, cause fish tend to call paired boards with a lot of backdoor trash(still cbetting is profitable due to initiative and the fact that he has a wide folding range too). So calling is best to induce the riverbluffbet.
    • BogdanDr
      BogdanDr
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.12.2009 Posts: 188
      Preflop: it is better to raise to 4x in order to have more fold equity, build a bigger pot, if he calls, that u will fairly often take down on the flop or later streets and u will be able to apply more pressure on his weak range in a bigger pot.
      Flop: the bet, in my opinion, should be somewhere between 2/3 & 3/4 of the pot, mainly because if he is going to call your 1/2 bet with under pairs to the K or with A high, he will also call a 2/3 pot or around 3/4pot.So by betting small you lose value. Your hand is usually good there and he could call you light because of the board texture(paired board with one high card - usually a good CB board).
      Turn: in my opinion it is fairly unlikely for him to have an 8, so your 8full of K is almost for sure the best hand. When he min raises he could have a K, a pure bluff, trying to cheaply take you off high card hands or even a small pocket pair that for some reason he tries to thin value bet against high cards.by re-raising you will mostly keep his K,x(that u split with) and sometimes 8,x range in and fold all his bluffs or small pockets. You have position on him and on the river you can expect another bet from his pockets, that you can re-raise for value.
    • kiromanAAKK
      kiromanAAKK
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.10.2009 Posts: 4,022
      Im missing something here. We don'y know the opponent, we don't have any stats, note or what so ever, so, I don't get why every1 want raise with such hand.

      Plus, raise bigger than 6 time the open-limper ...

      Im just go to a confusional mode/state right now :D

      Look forward to see the develop of this discussion :)
    • Bordito
      Bordito
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.02.2007 Posts: 1,104
      what youre trying to accomplish by raising is just exploit the "usual" playstyle ppl who openlimp the SB tend to have, which means they often call youre preflop raise and then play fit or fold on the flop. Best exploit: Raise big pre to get more money on that street and use ur FE on the flop/turn/river to increase ur ev in these spots.
    • SPeedFANat1c
      SPeedFANat1c
      Gold
      Joined: 04.01.2009 Posts: 5,070
      If we assume this is unknown:

      preflop - raise ok, because they complete with bad hands, so they fold to raise preflop or postflop, cause we make cbet.

      Flop - since he very often has weak range and board is very dry, we cbet low.

      Turn - (I think this hand is from my database) I think I was told not to play this so aggresively :) probably its better to bet/call his c/r, to keep his bluffs. Because mostly he has Kx, so spliting pot anyway, but if he has weaker, he is folding to aggression.
    • chocular77
      chocular77
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.06.2010 Posts: 1,102
      PF: Raising the SB with Khigh should be ok but it really depends on image and on the opponent.
      F: standard cbet, the size should also be ok since it's a dry board and we are IP.

      T: SB c/r could mean he has an K or a weaker pair (8 very unlikely).
      I just don't like the 3B since he can only really call with a Kx which would be a split anyway or a 8 which beats us and fold all weaker hands. +We don't have to protect against anything.
      So i would just call turn and call river or bet 1/2 if villain checks.

      Edit: wow i wrote nearly the exact same thing as speedfanatic.
      I swear i didn't read any comments bevor i made my post! :)
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Hello,

      As we pretty much agreed during the coaching that the hand is totally overplayed.

      a) We should consider betting a bit bigger on the flop $0,80 would be my sizing.
      b) According Flop sizing our Bet sizing on turn doesn't suit at all while the bet size just tells that we have very strong hand and they are going to continue very rarely with a lot weaker hands.
      c) We are just overplaying our Kx here with the 3bet, you will rarely see any worse hands here which are going broke.

      At the best we see a Kx. While he could easily have AA/8x and which are very likely even. For that given fact at the best we can consider Bet/Calling and reevaluating it on the river.

      Best Regards.