MSS pre-flop interpretation

    • mrbeast87
      mrbeast87
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      Joined: 22.02.2011 Posts: 194
      Hey I'm with some doubts about the MSS 3-betting chart.

      Consider this:

      MP2: raise to 3bb
      Button: re-raise to 9bb

      I'm in the big blind with AK. According to the 3-betting chart, what should I do? Go all-in or fold?
  • 18 replies
    • Saka000
      Saka000
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      Joined: 21.07.2010 Posts: 136
      Instant fold...their range is fliping in best case...
      A raise from the button re-raise with 10+ and AQ+ but you will not get ended up against AQ playing for stacks.

      ------------------------------------
      Saka000 yourney to become poker pro :)
    • mrbeast87
      mrbeast87
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      Joined: 22.02.2011 Posts: 194
      Alright, thanks for the insight :)

      But now imagine this:

      MP2: raise to 3bb

      Now I'm in the Button with AK, and I make a re-raise to 9bb according to the chart.

      BB: re-raise all-in
      MP2: folds

      What should I do?
    • Saka000
      Saka000
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      Joined: 21.07.2010 Posts: 136
      Without stats on BB or MP2 i would call all in,but i do not know.
      I would look how many tables he plays and stacksizes(either he is sss,mss,bss)
      But in general,though situation. :f_confused:
    • churchilland
      churchilland
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      Joined: 26.01.2011 Posts: 263
      Originally posted by mrbeast87
      Hey I'm with some doubts about the MSS 3-betting chart.

      Consider this:

      MP2: raise to 3bb
      Button: re-raise to 9bb

      I'm in the big blind with AK. According to the 3-betting chart, what should I do? Go all-in or fold?
      i thin acroding to strategy on preflop you use 3 betting chart only if one player raised, if two raised as i nyour example you play only with AA KK and go all in
    • noisecore
      noisecore
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      Joined: 12.04.2010 Posts: 5,221
      It's a shove imo.

      Considering following facts:

      MP2 Open
      Button 3bet
      We have foldequity
      we have blockers against AA/KK
      we flip against his PP
      We dominate AQs , AJs (the statement made by an above poster that you won't end up playing for stacks against AQ is false as you are only 40bb deep or less so people tend to call lighter against shortstacks. Also this is exactly why it is important to have a balanced range in this spot, if you dont have a balanced 3bet range you will get a lot less action on monsters).

      Just like every other chart you'll find in the basic articles the MSS charts are too tight. Widen up and balance your ranges.

      I played MSS with 22/17 and it works 10x better than playing 10/9. Just work hard on your postflop game as you'll be playing more hands.

      this is against a tight 3betting range:

      Equity Gewonnen GelijkspelVerloren Hand
      Speler 1: 52,538 % 41,442 % 22,191 % 36,367 % AsKs
      Speler 2: 47,462 % 36,367 % 22,191 % 41,442 % JJ+, AQs+, AQo+


      Now take into consideration that 3Bet ranges are somewhat balanced and have 3bet bluffs in it.

      That's why AK is a shove there against the average player.
    • noisecore
      noisecore
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      Joined: 12.04.2010 Posts: 5,221
      Originally posted by mrbeast87
      Alright, thanks for the insight :)

      But now imagine this:

      MP2: raise to 3bb

      Now I'm in the Button with AK, and I make a re-raise to 9bb according to the chart.

      BB: re-raise all-in
      MP2: folds

      What should I do?
      Villain dependant but it's a call in many cases.
      only if you know that villain only shoves QQ+ in that spot it's a fold
    • churchilland
      churchilland
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      Joined: 26.01.2011 Posts: 263
      so what other hands would you play on preflop? smaller pairs ?
    • luckyZii
      luckyZii
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      Joined: 09.01.2010 Posts: 17
      I had a situation which is not in the 3-betting chart either:

      UTG+2: raise 3BB
      I am on the BU: raise to 9BB with QQ
      BB: All-in
      UTG+2: All-in

      What should I do?

      Thanks!
    • ItsTeddyKGB
      ItsTeddyKGB
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      Joined: 10.01.2011 Posts: 734
      Originally posted by luckyZinabol
      I had a situation which is not in the 3-betting chart either:

      UTG+2: raise 3BB
      I am on the BU: raise to 9BB with QQ
      BB: All-in
      UTG+2: All-in

      What should I do?

      Thanks!
      If you 3bet with QQ, you go broke with QQ.
    • luckyZii
      luckyZii
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      Joined: 09.01.2010 Posts: 17
      That's what I did.
      BB had AA, UTG had KK! Was just thinking that maybe I should have folded..

      Thanks a lot!
    • Jimanyjerk
      Jimanyjerk
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      Joined: 29.12.2010 Posts: 366
      I played MSS with 22/17 and it works 10x better than playing 10/9. Just work hard on your postflop game as you'll be playing more hands.


      Sorry for bumping an oldish thread but I am just very curious, how are you playing MSS with 22/17? What levels did it work on? are you play 6 max or are you managing to play that percentage fullring? I'm very interested because I'd like to eventually loosen up the MSS so that it's less rigid, more thought based, and more fun.

      Thanks for reading!
    • roopopper
      roopopper
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      Joined: 31.12.2010 Posts: 4,289
      Hey jimany
      I play a lot of mss, and have recently began to open up my range a bit more, I open raise 22+ aj+ from utg, 22+ a9s+ ajo+ from middle and then from cu onwards I open much wider, I found that building up my opening ranges from late position was less risky and easier to play post flop with me often having position on villian. I still use the 3 bet chart and the resteal chart, but I make it stat dependent as there is no point 3 betting the rocks with stats of 3/2 lol.
      I'm currently playing nl10, but I may jump to nl25 soon.

      Would be great to hear your thoughts on the subject too :)

      We joined ps within 2 days of each other :D

      Roo
    • Jimanyjerk
      Jimanyjerk
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      Joined: 29.12.2010 Posts: 366
      What kind of stats have you ended up with when using that opening range? I thought it was a little dangerous to open raise with the lower pairs when you're counting on set value for a majority of them. There's fairly thin implied odds for 35 bb but if you manage to double up a large quantity of the time you hit a set you're probably making money. They are usually ahead preflop, is that where you are finding they are successful?How is it working for you?

      I've started to wonder, do you have any advice for me in regards to using the stats for reads? I Understand them but I'm not making too much headway yet with a majority of the decisions they can assist. I literally got HEM 3 days ago and I've had very little time getting into it. If there's a video that I'm missing on PS.com it's well hidden.

      I would like to practice more complex post-flop play so that kind of open raising range sounds really interesting. It's funny we joined PS at the same time! I hope you didn't get stuck in the full-tilt thing like I did! I'd like to think I'd be in at least NL 6 by now if I played since I started. Instead, once FT went south, I spent a few months reading poker books.

      The outstanding one as far as I'm concerned is No Limit Holdem Theory and Practice By Sklansky and Miller. It's not a "how to play 100 flops" kind of book. It's more of a tool for understanding HOW post flop equity is constructed. Goes beyond odds and outs into calling percentages and pay offs, profitable prices for information, Calculating expected value, and a little in hand reading technique. it is basically a book that allows you to make informed opinions over how to play No limit. This ties back to my previous statement because the reading of this book is making me really want to play a wider range of hands!

      I hope you're having plenty of luck to go along with the adjustments! I'm envious of you NL25 future, I'm considering taking a shot at NL6 (888poker doesn't have .02/.04 or .02/.05 ): once I get around 40 BI at NL2!

      Have fun killing the tables!
    • roopopper
      roopopper
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      Joined: 31.12.2010 Posts: 4,289
      Originally posted by Jimanyjerk
      What kind of stats have you ended up with when using that opening range? I thought it was a little dangerous to open raise with the lower pairs when you're counting on set value for a majority of them. There's fairly thin implied odds for 35 bb but if you manage to double up a large quantity of the time you hit a set you're probably making money. They are usually ahead preflop, is that where you are finding they are successful?How is it working for you?

      I've started to wonder, do you have any advice for me in regards to using the stats for reads? I Understand them but I'm not making too much headway yet with a majority of the decisions they can assist. I literally got HEM 3 days ago and I've had very little time getting into it. If there's a video that I'm missing on PS.com it's well hidden.

      I would like to practice more complex post-flop play so that kind of open raising range sounds really interesting. It's funny we joined PS at the same time! I hope you didn't get stuck in the full-tilt thing like I did! I'd like to think I'd be in at least NL 6 by now if I played since I started. Instead, once FT went south, I spent a few months reading poker books.

      The outstanding one as far as I'm concerned is No Limit Holdem Theory and Practice By Sklansky and Miller. It's not a "how to play 100 flops" kind of book. It's more of a tool for understanding HOW post flop equity is constructed. Goes beyond odds and outs into calling percentages and pay offs, profitable prices for information, Calculating expected value, and a little in hand reading technique. it is basically a book that allows you to make informed opinions over how to play No limit. This ties back to my previous statement because the reading of this book is making me really want to play a wider range of hands!

      I hope you're having plenty of luck to go along with the adjustments! I'm envious of you NL25 future, I'm considering taking a shot at NL6 (888poker doesn't have .02/.04 or .02/.05 ): once I get around 40 BI at NL2!

      Have fun killing the tables!
      My stats tend to be around 12/12 to 14/14 at the mo with 3 bet at 6% my stealing range is sometimes a bit high going up to 50% at times but generally its around 35%
      I have found that I have fold Equity opening small pp's from utg as most players know that short stacks are pretty tight from utg, i often get a fold to c bet when villian calls too. i,m not really looking to set mine. One of the things I like about mss is its not profitable to set mine us.
      my game is still pretty tight because I use the rol chart too which if a game is really loose means im tending to get it in with the better hands. if the game is tight im open raising much more.
      The first stats I started to find usefull are fold to steal as I could pick up dead money in the blinds from the rocks. At nl2 its hard to get loads of hands on many players because of the wide player pool. vpip and pfr are great indicators of when to rol or 3 bet, sometimes the fish at nl2 are playing 45/3 so even though I know they are fish I know the pfr range is kk AA :f_biggrin:
      Im certainly no expert and have a lot to learn but im hoping that this coming year will be successful.


      Saying all this, here is a great example of a big stack trying to set mine me, yes I know I got lucky. Have no idea why he would go broke with a pair of sevens to an under-the-gun raise though Everybody knows us shortstacks only play TT+ from utg !!! :f_biggrin:


      Grabbed by Holdem Manager
      NL Holdem $0.02(BB) Replayer
      SB ($0.78)
      BB ($1.43)
      Hero ($0.45)
      UTG+1 ($2)
      UTG+2 ($2.80)
      MP1 ($1.48)
      CO ($0.91)
      BTN ($2.46)

      Dealt to Hero 3:spade: 3:heart:

      Hero raises to $0.06, fold, UTG+2 calls $0.06, fold, fold, fold, fold, BB calls $0.04

      FLOP ($0.19) 2:spade: 5:club: 3:diamond:

      BB checks, Hero bets $0.19, UTG+2 calls $0.19, BB folds

      TURN ($0.57) 2:spade: 5:club: 3:diamond: T:club:

      Hero bets $0.20 (AI), UTG+2 calls $0.20

      RIVER ($0.97) 2:spade: 5:club: 3:diamond: T:club: K:diamond:

      Hero shows 3:spade: 3:heart:
      (Pre 18%, Flop 88.7%, Turn 95.5%)

      UTG+2 shows 7:heart: 7:diamond:
      (Pre 82%, Flop 11.3%, Turn 4.5%)

      Hero wins $0.93
    • Jimanyjerk
      Jimanyjerk
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.12.2010 Posts: 366
      Haha wow thanks a lot and nice hand!

      Once I get more in tune with how I'm reading table and individual stats I'll definitely give that a shot. So your pocket pair play is based on the mid/short stack image's fold equity, with the times you double up with a set as a bonus? Sounds like Icing on a cake if I got that right :D

      I'm currently running at 9/9 with a 3 bet of 4.3% which strikes me as possibly being a bit low. I'm definitely on the weak tight side of terrible though :f_grin: . Once I get a bit more brave in the 3 bet department I'll be really raking it in.

      Guess it's time to study!

      Garet
    • roopopper
      roopopper
      Bronze
      Joined: 31.12.2010 Posts: 4,289
      Originally posted by Jimanyjerk
      Haha wow thanks a lot and nice hand!

      Once I get more in tune with how I'm reading table and individual stats I'll definitely give that a shot. So your pocket pair play is based on the mid/short stack image's fold equity, with the times you double up with a set as a bonus? Sounds like Icing on a cake if I got that right :D

      I'm currently running at 9/9 with a 3 bet of 4.3% which strikes me as possibly being a bit low. I'm definitely on the weak tight side of terrible though :f_grin: . Once I get a bit more brave in the 3 bet department I'll be really raking it in.

      Guess it's time to study!

      Garet
      yes Im trying to polarise my range a bit too as on low boards players know short/mid stacks only play at the high end of ranges. Although I am a pure begginer at all this!! hopfully one of the ps experts may give us some advice about this :f_biggrin:

      9/9 is deffo the correct range for mss starting hand charts. Your 3 bet is maybe a little bit low but at nl2 its probably right as the fish tend to limp with crap and raise with premium hands. hence them having stats of 28/2 lol. I have recently written ranges from equilab onto the 3 bet charts, to give me a better idea if its worth 3 betting i.e.. AA KK QQ = 1.4% of starting hands, this gives me a little info on if im going to 3bet/shove to villian with stats of say 24/12 etc. Its not infallible of course but it seems to help me make a better decision. Also the fold to 3 bet stats helps but you need a lot of hands to really use this effectivley( I think its about 500)
      Also I have started to take notes, stuff like villian limp reraises AA or limps from utg with pp's.

      Roo
    • Jimanyjerk
      Jimanyjerk
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.12.2010 Posts: 366
      Haha you're already helping me out a lot. I hadn't thought to start using those programs for more than just boosting my ego after a bad beat. There are so many chasers on these limits it's unreal. The first thing I'm going to use it with is AK, because that hand is actually my biggest loser after 3k hands. Thats pretty depressing if you ask me!

      I'm definitely not hitting with it as often as I'd like but I also definitely can't chalk it all up to variance and bad play.

      Keep the stats rolling, how many hands do you have with this 12-14/12-14 style?
    • roopopper
      roopopper
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      Joined: 31.12.2010 Posts: 4,289
      not many hands really around 4k as I have been playing nl10 quite abit this month, but only one table.

      As for ak my stats for after 62924 hands and played 608 times, made $82, funny i always seem to lose with this hand but when I checked hole cards is hem only AA beats it for winnings lol :)