Discussion for the quiz 'Cold 4-bets - short-handed'

  • 7 replies
    • wlcKeD
      wlcKeD
      Bronze
      Joined: 24.02.2009 Posts: 1,048
      Why is it SO BAD to call in the 9th question, and evaluate on flop? If it was not suited, I'd understand, but now against their ranges, if BU PFR is 25% then his steal range which is not mentioned should be even more wider, and since he's got position and nice odds he won't probably 4bet but call (knowing NL10), and I could be even dominating and get paid of nicely quite often (especially in these still lower limits), also if he does fold, then I'd have position on mr.SB with a pretty wide 3bet here, where I could also be dominating and get paid of, and in the "worst" case scenario I can always fold on flop if I hit nothing, or a little something but with too much action - it's not a very big investment to call after all against these loose opponents. I know that it's not the best of the best choice, but I can not quite understand why is it so bluntly "a call is out" ? I'd expect at least 1 point, if not even 2 there ... Isn't it a bit too weak to fold AQ SUITED there against THESE opponents?

      Just trying to learn here :rolleyes:
    • wlcKeD
      wlcKeD
      Bronze
      Joined: 24.02.2009 Posts: 1,048
      Does anybody know where that quiz disappeared ?? ?(
    • Nordin
      Nordin
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.09.2008 Posts: 3,866
      The quiz was accidentally released earlier this week. It will be back online tomorrow around noon. :)
    • luizsilveira
      luizsilveira
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.11.2010 Posts: 2,320
      Nice quiz but I have big doubts regarding questions 4 and 5.

      Our MP 3bets quite a bunch from MP, that is true. But why would he 3bet this same 8% against a super nit opening from UTG?

      UTG opens 7% overall, and probably opens still less from UTG. So, ok, fine, we're slightly ahead a 5% range with our QQ but we're actually behind with AK.

      Then the MP 3bets. Mind that he is 3betting a nit who opens from UTG and has (obviously) low fold to 3bet. UTG's fold to 3bet is an overall 50%, but then again his fold to 3bet from UTG has to be quite lower.

      If we are assuming minimally thinking players with basic table dynamics the MP is never ever 3betting this guy light. Now, if we were not exactly fistpumping against UTG's range in the first place, why should we play against both his uber tight range AND a range that 3bets him from also a somewhat early position?
    • zarsky
      zarsky
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.01.2010 Posts: 2,822
      Originally posted by luizsilveira
      Nice quiz but I have big doubts regarding questions 4 and 5.
      ...
      100% agree
      "Folded" those as well

      And in general
      4-bet/fold - against which one of two opponents?
      4-bet/broke - against which one of them?
      Could make a big difference in some examples..
    • SvenBe
      SvenBe
      Headadmin
      Headadmin
      Joined: 19.04.2006 Posts: 13,116
      He guys,

      Regarding Question 4 and 5:

      We should know that those are very close spots. Even with a 10/7 player in UTG we should not assume that he only raises KK+ here. MP3 will 3bet UTG not very lightly but can still put pressure on him.

      Unfortunately its almost impossible to create exact EV calculations here, since to many different scenarios could be involved. MPs range is not to tight since he might give himself a lot of FE in this place - UTG will most likely fold 60%+ here and just bring it in with QQ+/AK.

      For MP it does not really matter what hand he shoves. The reason is that no matter if he is very tight or very loose we have a +EV spot against him. If he goes broke lightly we are ahead of his range, if he goes broke very tightly then we collect the dead money often enough.

      As you see - this is surely not the spot where we get most of our EV from. I have been deciding for the aggressive line here - and I do not think its a wrong decision. At the end this is not the nicest situation at all.
    • SvenBe
      SvenBe
      Headadmin
      Headadmin
      Joined: 19.04.2006 Posts: 13,116
      wlcKeD, for question 9:

      You exactly mentioned the point yourself:
      "and in the "worst" case scenario I can always fold on flop if I hit nothing,"
      =>You do not hit 2/3 of the time, you are always in a sandwich between SB and BU - thats not a good situation. Also, if you do hit and want to get payout - lets say on a Q89 board - what hands will you get value from: those you beat or those that beat you? I am pretty sure anything is better but a call.