FL5CD, AA99x

    • jenoc
      jenoc
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.04.2008 Posts: 510
      PokerStars Limit 5 Card Draw $0.10/$0.20 - 6 players

      UTG+1: $16.92
      CO: $1.80
      Button: $5.39
      SB: $0.80
      BB: $5.23 (Hero)
      UTG: $3.27

      Dealing Hands: ($0.15) (6 players)
      UTG folds, UTG+1 calls $0.10, 2 folds, SB calls $0.05, Hero raises to $0.20, UTG+1 calls $0.10, SB calls $0.10

      First Draw: ($0.60) (3 players)
      SB discards 1, Hero discards 1, UTG+1 discards 3,
      ||
      SB checks, Hero bets $0.20, UTG+1 raises to $0.40, SB folds, Hero calls $0.20



      Opponent was 60/26 calling everything what he limped with. Hard to overcome curiosity + zomg pot odds and I end up paying them off. How should I play this hand?

      A bit more off a theory question - is bet/folding good play in FL games (I'm total FL noob)? In micro NLTH its nutz, but here I usually get good odds and end up bet/calling :)

      Is this hand converter ok?
  • 10 replies
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
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      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 8,913
      Hand converter looks way cool -- which one is it?

      Pre-draw, I play this exactly the same.

      Post draw, I would also bet out here. I don't often see check/raises, so I'm guessing SB is giving up -- busted flush or low 2pr.

      Do you have a HUD? How often does UTG+1 3Bet?
      If it is rare, I might fold here.
      Have you caught him bluffing before?
      I'll quite often call a guy's 3Bet the first time -- and mark it down to tuition fees.

      If he hit two pair, he pays YOU off, but he has you on a flush or good 2pr, so would most likely call or fold unless he thinks he has you beat. Therefore, the question is, what would he raise with?

      Personally, if I was UTG+1, I would 3Bet w/ trips or better, and happily pay off your flush.

      Disclaimer:
      I am be no means an expert!
    • jenoc
      jenoc
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.04.2008 Posts: 510
      Hi, Vorpal

      Not sure am I allowed to post links here, but google for "feralcowpoker" :)

      UTG donked around in his first 20 hands or so. After pwng he played way more standard. After 89 hands his AF was 0.8. I do have a hud, but haven't figured out how to display other then default stats in Summary window (poker hands).

      Whats a "standard" AF for 5CD? For example mine is 3.7. Most guys I have at least some history (100+ hands) with have it around 1.5-2.0. Might it be that I'm to aggressive due to micro NLTH background.
    • Shidlovsky
      Shidlovsky
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      Joined: 18.06.2010 Posts: 70
      I don't see how we can possibly fold after he discards 3, even tho im noob at 5CD.
    • Jadino
      Jadino
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.02.2009 Posts: 800
      I´m a little bit bored and tired so i make some communtywork, i think to raise in this spot ad is not a really good play, because the most player which don`t raise or reraise you pd, will call you with a unimproved hand regulary.

      You are three ways sb draws in a spot like this, most of the time(on this limit) to a straight, flush or a inside straight, so he nearly never will call you unimproved and you don`t will give him the spot to c/r.

      UTG+1 is a fish and if you check after the sb, he is maybe willing to bluff often enough with a bad hand, but he don`t will call you with a worse hand than a two pair.

      So make your math and you will figure out that if you bet, you will get just in some little percent value , in more percent you get raised and have to call because of the odds and will lose, and most of the time both will fold.
      So know think of yourself if a bet in this spot is good standart play ;)
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
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      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 8,913
      Originally posted by jenoc
      but google for "feralcowpoker"
      I can't remember which one I used, so I'll give that a try

      After 89 hands his AF was 0.8. I do have a hud, but haven't figured out how to display other then default stats in Summary window (poker hands).
      In the summary window, on the right-and side, are two icons, if you hover the mouse over the top one, it says, "Filter Hands", but actually, it is where you select columns -- you can't filter hands as far as I know. If you figure out how, please let me know!

      Whats a "standard" AF for 5CD? For example mine is 3.7. Most guys I have at least some history (100+ hands) with have it around 1.5-2.0. Might it be that I'm to aggressive due to micro NLTH background.
      I have no idea what is standard.
      After 6800 hands, my AF is showing as 1.93 but the first 1000 hands or so, I was really passive. In my last 10 sessions, my average AF has been 5.7, but I'm not sure it is valid to just average the numbers like that. I have one session of 67 hands w/ an AF of 20.

      My vpip/pfr is 22.7/14.1 and my 3Bet is 9.8.
      I only play decent hands, and I (almost) always raise first in -- rarely limp.
      If I'm enterring a pot behind limpers, it will almost always be w/ 2pr+ and always w/ a raise. My contibet is 78%, too. I think it makes sense, though, since I'm rarely enterring pots w/ "hopeful" hands. Even if I play a flush draw, I will only play it if I can open raise it, and hit or not, I CBet it -- but if I miss, I will fold against someone who bets out post draw -- what I'm trying to say is I think I'm fairly aggressive.

      Have you read EVGalois' 5CD articles?
      They REALLY helped me.
    • asketak
      asketak
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      Joined: 11.04.2010 Posts: 191
      Jenoc :

      I dont see any mistake predraw, value betting after draw is tighter spot without any reads but versus this kind of opponent pretty standart. Aggainst this villian I can imagine reraising him as well(with some better reads). You can fold this two pair against nit with stats like 5/10/1.0 (pdr/vpip/af)

      Just my opinion, I beat 0.20/0.50 after 3000 hands and dont call myself regular at all.

      To the next question - Bet/folding is somehow standart line for me especially vs straghtforward opponents. There are not a lot of people reraising as bluff at these limit, but some of them overplay they hands(usually weak-middle two pairs, you need some kind of read to narrow villian range so closely.)

      Vorpal:
      My vpip/pfr is 22.7/14.1 and my 3Bet is 9.8.
      I only play decent hands, and I (almost) always raise first in -- rarely limp.
      If I'm enterring a pot behind limpers, it will almost always be w/ 2pr+ and always w/ a raise. My contibet is 78%, too. I think it makes sense, though, since I'm rarely enterring pots w/ "hopeful" hands. Even if I play a flush draw, I will only play it if I can open raise it, and hit or not, I CBet it -- but if I miss, I will fold against someone who bets out post draw -- what I'm trying to say is I think I'm fairly aggressive.


      vpip/pfr 22.7/14.1 seems to me like tight passive way. You think you are agressive, but still you openlimp more then 8% of hands, thats more then all 1 card draws. IMHO is openlimping in FL5CD always mistake, because you allow draws to draw on you. You can OVERlimp draw if it offers good odds.

      My stats : 21/24/5 (pdr/vpip/af) I think i should tight my range a little bit but not far from optimal play.

      Just my 2 cents.
    • jbpatzer
      jbpatzer
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      Joined: 22.11.2009 Posts: 6,944
      Getting such good odds, I think he has enough worse two pair and bluffs in his range to call. Getting 6 to 1, you only need to be good 16% of the time, so just remember that, if you are good 25% of the time, it's a clear call, but you will still lose three times out of four. That's why it's important to focus on his range, not the outcome.

      And yes, b/f is a good way to play two pair if you think Villain is likely to check behind, but might look you up with an unimproved AAxxx. In the hand you posted, he limp called and discarded three, so he probably has a crappy little pair, so your value bet isn't even that thin.
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
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      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 8,913
      Originally posted by asketakVorpal:

      vpip/pfr 22.7/14.1 seems to me like tight passive way. You think you are agressive, but still you openlimp more then 8% of hands, thats more then all 1 card draws. IMHO is openlimping in FL5CD always mistake, because you allow draws to draw on you. You can OVERlimp draw if it offers good odds.

      My stats : 21/24/5 (pdr/vpip/af) I think i should tight my range a little bit but not far from optimal play.

      Just my 2 cents.
      Thanks for that.
      Unfortunately, my overall stats include about 1000 hands where I just called and spewed cash. I wish I know how to set filters in PokerHands/
    • jenoc
      jenoc
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      Joined: 06.04.2008 Posts: 510
      Hi, guys

      Thanks, lots of great thoughts in here!

      UTG is very likely to be on a pair after drawing 3 so more likely he'll cback than bet out if checked to. Checking and calling could be more of a option if UTG limp/calls and draws 1, I guess.

      As for stats if we compare

      At the moment I'm at 22/18/3.7 My WtSD is 60%, (have no idea about this one) W$SD=51%, Cbet=49% (low?) Fold2Cbet=41%(paying them off to often?) thou I have played only 2k hands this far..

      Vorpal, thanks for help with Pokerhands, haven't figured out have to filter hands too. I try to play according to EVGalois articles. But sometimes I call PD when not sure what to do :P For example when some 15/6 utg opens and I have something like TT99x. Or in BB vs regular late openers with something like TT-JJ.
    • Huricano
      Huricano
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      Joined: 29.08.2010 Posts: 2,228
      For example when some 15/6 utg opens and I have something like TT99x


      TT99x vs standard UTG (AA+) might be a marginal call/3bet, but vs 15/6 is AUTO fold. I think that even with 222xx you lost more than win if his stats are correct.

      It looks like he start open raising from KKup-AAup so u know where yours TT99 stand vs this range... :)

      At the moment I'm at 22/18/3.7 My WtSD is 60%, (have no idea about this one) W$SD=51%, Cbet=49% (low?) Fold2Cbet=41%(paying them off to often?) thou I have played only 2k hands this far..


      Awesome stats! Keep up the good work.

      When it comes to cbetting just make sure you'll cbet weak 2pairs vs BB/SB discarding 3 to balance you're busted draws. (First example in EVGalois articles with 3322)
      Value betting AA in BU vs BB or SB vs BB is also theoretically correct.