New to PLO - could you comment on my stats?

    • luizsilveira
      luizsilveira
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.11.2010 Posts: 2,320
      Hi,

      You can find more information about me on my blog. After some runbad at NLHE I couldn't face the two cards anymore and decided to give it a break. Played a bit of 5CD and PLO, liked the second, and decided to "grind" it a bit today with the trial version of PT3 Omaha.

      I know 2k hands is no sample at all but since I have no clue whatsoever it might be enough to spot some "big deviances". Thanks for any comments!

      (by the way, they were all deep 250BB tables, PLO2)



      edit: oh, it's 6max, forgot to mention that...
  • 9 replies
    • conall88
      conall88
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2009 Posts: 1,715
      PLO needs an even bigger sample than NLHE to be significant. don't bother with samples under 25k hands imo, and I would call that "barely significant" if at all.
    • luizsilveira
      luizsilveira
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.11.2010 Posts: 2,320
      Originally posted by conall88
      PLO needs an even bigger sample than NLHE to be significant. don't bother with samples under 25k hands imo, and I would call that "barely significant" if at all.
      Cheers for the reply, mate.

      hmmm. But are talking about results, right? Aren't 2k hands at least a start to check VPIP/PFR/cbet and the sort of simple/basic stats?
    • GodlikeRoy
      GodlikeRoy
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.10.2010 Posts: 337
      2k hands is enough to get an indication on some of the more basic stats yes.

      Your VPIP is reasonable. You could increase it a few % and still be within a "tight" range but before you do that I would work on being a bit more aggressive overall. Your PFR should be higher (especially in an ante game where there is more incentive to raise pre) and your 3bet % should also be higher (aim for 6-7% to begin with). The problem with a 3bet % as low as yours is that you are likely 3betting an unbalanced range which is heavily skewed towards "big cards" like AAxx or AKQJ etc. Even if you are balanced, you are losing value by not 3betting a little wider.

      Your postflop aggression numbers also seem on the low end. By this I mean you AF, AFq and flop c/r. All of these numbers should be higher to allow you to win more pots without showdown as well as by maximising value out of your stronger hands and making you all around more difficult to play against.

      These are all fairly big deviances and even with just a 2k sample size I am confident that the best thing you can do is to play a bit more aggressive both preflop and postflop.
    • luizsilveira
      luizsilveira
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.11.2010 Posts: 2,320
      Originally posted by GodlikeRoy
      [...]

      These are all fairly big deviances and even with just a 2k sample size I am confident that the best thing you can do is to play a bit more aggressive both preflop and postflop.
      Thanks a whole lot!

      My game is overall passive because, as I was seeing from PL2, all pots are multiway (even 5 and sometimes 6 handed) which seemed to make being aggressive a bit suicidal without the nuts.

      Also, I had no idea how to play a hand worse than a set. It's only now (some xk hands more) that I'm getting used to what's showdown value in omaha, how to play pairs, etc. But still quite lost, at least all the videos I've seen and articles etc. are about wraps with flush draws... and after some 5k hands I must say those are MUCH harder to flop than I initially thought - even playing only very good starting hands.

      One thing about the 3bets: people don't raise much and limp like 80%. Some guys play 75/5, which makes quite clear that most of the times they raise and I 3bet, they will 4bet (which some do even with QQxxds). Then indeed I was 3betting only very premium unless some very specific opponents which will either fold OOP or call IP.

      On the other hand, I'm struggling a lot with the idea of potting the flop and turn and then having to fold river because board gets utterly connected or completes a flush draw and I had like a top set or top two pair etc.

      Today I played basically PLO6 and it went reasonably well. I think :f_biggrin:

      I def. need to catch some PLO public coaching.
    • luizsilveira
      luizsilveira
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.11.2010 Posts: 2,320
      Damn, tried to be more aggressive and ended up just being spewy. Got a good run in the morning (+8BI) but just spewed it all off in the afternoon.

      I had one difficulty I also have in NLHE: playing with a very very loose opponent to my left. Well, here in PLO they seem to be everywhere as the average VPIP at PLO6 seems to be around 60%.

      But on this table I had a guy to my left with 75%. What happened was I raised (strong hands) and then usually had something like a flush draw on the flop; if I cbet he would call 100% then I would usually have a weird decision OOP OTT uninproved.

      At some point I just started to barrel off my strong draws, which was a huge disaster. And of course with 3 way pots+ and so high VPIPs they seem to have hit virtually every board (and won't fold random 2 pairs even to three barrels).

      Then of course I know I'm supposed to valuebet much more thin and shut any bluffs and even weak semibluffs but I just didn't manage to achieve that.
    • Fush
      Fush
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.06.2008 Posts: 212
      You are calling/limping too much from SB. Its the worst position.

      You should try to start practising more aggressive play in position first and play straightforward oop. Look for easy flops that are locked down like monotone boards, paired boards, low card boards, dryish boards (J72). You can take a small stab on them (2way or 3way, no need to bluff in multiwaypot) . Againts passive guys you should valuebet thin like toppair good kicker/2pairs cause they will peel flops/turns easily. But remember that its hard to get 3 streets value with these so I am ok to bet 1-2 streets and checkbehind the river. Againts these vpip 60% guys you should only bet for value when you have good equity in the pot. Look also the fold to cbet stats/went to showdown, cause some of them plays pretty fit/fold on the flop. I recommend watching suitedeules "Moving Up in plo". In plo6 the game is basicly waiting for a good hand and bet for value.

      Watch for videos and pay attention to betsizes also. Don´t always bet potsize. Againts weak players your betsizes can be very unbalanced cause they just play their cards and doesnt adjust to your play. Its ok to bet smaller like half pot on these locked boards and a little bit more when you got something for instance.
    • luizsilveira
      luizsilveira
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.11.2010 Posts: 2,320
      Originally posted by Fush
      You are calling/limping too much from SB. Its the worst position.

      You should try to start practising more aggressive play in position first and play straightforward oop. Look for easy flops that are locked down like monotone boards, paired boards, low card boards, dryish boards (J72). You can take a small stab on them (2way or 3way, no need to bluff in multiwaypot) . Againts passive guys you should valuebet thin like toppair good kicker/2pairs cause they will peel flops/turns easily. But remember that its hard to get 3 streets value with these so I am ok to bet 1-2 streets and checkbehind the river. Againts these vpip 60% guys you should only bet for value when you have good equity in the pot. Look also the fold to cbet stats/went to showdown, cause some of them plays pretty fit/fold on the flop. I recommend watching suitedeules "Moving Up in plo". In plo6 the game is basicly waiting for a good hand and bet for value.

      Watch for videos and pay attention to betsizes also. Don´t always bet potsize. Againts weak players your betsizes can be very unbalanced cause they just play their cards and doesnt adjust to your play. Its ok to bet smaller like half pot on these locked boards and a little bit more when you got something for instance.
      Thanks a whole lot mate.

      I've seen the whole moving up in PLO series indeed. Nice one.

      But I do feel much of the PLO material focuses on big hands - big draws, sets, etc. I'm completely lost in terms of how to play, and what are, the average hands. Like, how to play pairs, top pairs, overpairs, two pairs, etc. And what's the average hand people call and drag cheaply to showdown with.
    • Termi8r
      Termi8r
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.02.2008 Posts: 408
      Hi mate,

      I'm also starting out in PLO. My stats are very similar to yours playing NL2 an NL5. After watching the basics you would end up with stats like that. 3-betting for isolation would definitely make you money on the higher stakes where people actually CARE about the money. And by higher I mean prob NL25+ (?) donno...cheese burger stakes you get called and play MW a lot.

      I would advise to look to other training sites to compliment this excellent one of course :P ...there are some good videos that deal with the differences between PLO and HE and the general thought processes that you need for PLO.

      Have fun and don't tilt when your fh gets hammered by a quad or straight floosh...
    • Fush
      Fush
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.06.2008 Posts: 212
      It really is board texture dependent and opponent dependent. Those 1pair/2pair are mostly marginal hands especially when the board is very dynamic but pretty good to barrel in drier boards with backdoordraws. With high wts guys you can go for a thin value if the board texture is favorable. With lower wts they won´t call but in some case you can turn those hands into a bluff. Of course with bluffy image you can get value. They are not winning that often at showdown and you can consider them "middle pairs" if you compere to holdem. In omaha its always good to try to get opponent fold his peace of equity cause the equitys are way closer than in holdem and the board is changing a lot.

      For instance I can bet for thin value againts callhappy fish hupot 2 streets on board like J72 with top pair+overs (good backdoor equity). I am happy if he folds on turn. Just watch the hands they are getting showdown. People fold pretty often to a second barrel with weaker hands cause they cant stand the pressure. And in micros they play draws/weak hands passively and sets/top2 harder.

      This is advanced stuff. You should run some equity calcutions in Omaha Equilab to learn about equitys in different textures vs different opponent. First just try to learn "ABC" omaha, playing tight and is right. In position you can try to steal those "good" flops but be wary cause people in micros are pretty terrible. So playing hands with nutpotential you can crush them. And those 1pair/2pair hands are hard to play in multiwaypots without other draws and you get in mwpots very often in micros. I was playing 20/13 on pokerstars plo5 with winrate over 10bb/100 hands when I started.