[NL2-NL10] Bet or Check?

    • HansTheGreat
      HansTheGreat
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.02.2010 Posts: 3,808
      Hand converted with online PokerStrategy.com hand converter:

      Play hand

      $0.02/$0.05 No-Limit Hold'em (9 handed)

      Known players:
      BB:
      $5.39
      UTG1:
      $4.00
      UTG2:
      $2.95
      MP1:
      $5.33
      MP2:
      $4.73
      MP3:
      $8.66
      CO (Hero):
      $5.60
      BU:
      $5.84
      SB:
      $2.00


      Preflop: Hero is CO with 9, 8.
      UTG1 folds, UTG2 calls $0.05, MP1 folds, MP2 raises to $0.20, MP3 calls $0.20, Hero calls $0.20, 3 folds, UTG2 calls $0.15.

      Flop: ($0.87) 3, Q, J (4 players)
      UTG2 checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks, Hero bets $0.60, UTG2 raises to $2.75, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, Hero calls $2.15.

      Turn: ($6.37) Q (2 players)


      River: ($6.37) 4 (2 players)


      Final Pot: $6.37.
      Results follow:

      Hero shows a pair of queens(9 8).
      UTG2 shows a full-house, queens full of jacks(Q J).

      UTG2 wins with a full-house, queens full of jacks(Q J).
  • 5 replies
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,909
      You have a monster draw, there's no question about it. What you need to ask yourself here is:

      If I bet, what hands that I don't beat will fold?

      Next, it's a 4way pot. Chances are very high that someone has Qx pr better. You definitely have the equity to get it in even against a set. But do you want to flip having position? OOP it's an easy bet/3bet(or call) to make position not count on turn and river. In position I think you should be more prone to take the free card when you definitely don't have folding equity, like it's the case here, even with a monster draw!
    • Pokerdad993
      Pokerdad993
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.07.2011 Posts: 406
      You cannot play Draws aggressiv profitable against lots of opponents. With a Flushdraw+OESD, I would Bet here. But it's not sure if your Flushdraw is save. you only have 9 high. I would check with the Flushdraw+Gutshot.
      Against more than 2 opponents i usually play my draws passiv, calling with pot odds and implied odds.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Hello Sikac,

      Betting is even there totally fine. Afterwards he even ship the hand we need ~34% equity which makes our hand played profitable here:

      Board: 3:spade: Q:club: J:club:
             Equity     Win     Tie
      UTG    41.24%  41.24%   0.00% { 9c8c }
      UTG+1  58.76%  58.76%   0.00% { 33, KQs, QJs, KcTc, KQo, QJo }

      So I don't mind your Call even but of course the play will have a bit bigger variance as you see from the equity. :) But sometimes he might even have worse hands, just Qx.

      Best Regards.
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,909
      Originally posted by veriz
      Hello Sikac,

      Betting is even there totally fine. Afterwards he even ship the hand we need ~34% equity which makes our hand played profitable here:

      Board: 3:spade: Q:club: J:club:
             Equity     Win     Tie
      UTG    41.24%  41.24%   0.00% { 9c8c }
      UTG+1  58.76%  58.76%   0.00% { 33, KQs, QJs, KcTc, KQo, QJo }

      So I don't mind your Call even but of course the play will have a bit bigger variance as you see from the equity. :) But sometimes he might even have worse hands, just Qx.

      Best Regards.
      With the risk of you accusing me of just trolling again I do have to say you all you have written there is that Hero should force an AI with 40% equity having position on the table and no folding equity. Neither of our draws is to the nuts so if it's not like we are value towning other draws.

      The range you gave our opponent is also greatly manipulated. Although in this case it doesn't change our overall equity it does change how we should think about the hand. Betting and getting called by hands like NFD or K high FD is not in our favour.

      Change our hand to AKcc and I get betting since we have at least 1 overcard vs his 1 pair hands and we are drawing to the nuts either with GS or FD and now we value town worse FDs.

      We are not playing only vs his going broke range, we are playing vs his c/c range as well because the problem is whether to cbet the flop or not, which can include draws that have us beat, weak Qx, Jx. We are playing vs a station not vs a guy that think Jx is dead in a 4way pot after someone bets.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      I don't mind betting there:
      a) It may even gain fold equity against any PPs something like 77-TT or whatsoever. Sometimes maybe even Jx.
      b) It will build up the pot in case we do hit.
      c) It will secure us a free card most likely since they wont bet the turn afterwards us betting the flop & having position.
      d) You might not get good implied odds on the turn anymore for the Call. :) But they may still Bet with something like Jx/worse PPs and not pay on the river.