[NL2-NL10] QJo sqz bluff?

    • Shady9966
      Shady9966
      Global
      Joined: 31.01.2008 Posts: 1,314
      Grabbed by Holdem Manager
      NL Holdem $0.05(BB) Replayer
      SB ($3.94)
      Hero ($6.44)
      UTG ($6.29)
      UTG+1 ($12.70)
      CO ($3.10)
      BTN ($5.28)

      Dealt to Hero Q:heart: J:club:

      fold, fold, fold, BTN raises to $0.17, SB calls $0.15, Hero raises to $0.45, fold, SB calls $0.28

      FLOP ($1.07) 9:spade: 6:heart: 6:diamond:

      SB checks, Hero checks

      TURN ($1.07) 9:spade: 6:heart: 6:diamond: 7:heart:

      SB bets $0.80, Hero folds

      SB wins $1.02
      the BU was 18/15 over 933hands
      the sb was 25/21 over 31 hands ( no post flop info )
      i tryed to sgz bluff and the to cbet bluff i have two questions here:
      1. It's ok what i tryed?
      2. if he's 25/21 that means that in his calling range are most likely PP so other turn cbet bluff will make him fold enough to be a profitable bluff?
  • 10 replies
    • ShaQQ
      ShaQQ
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.10.2008 Posts: 162
      I'd rather squeeze hands with the least amount of potential equity post flop, you have the odds to flat and see the flop and you can get to SD cheaply with mid pairs and top pair mid kicker etc but still have an opportunity to extract value when appropriate. As played I think I check behind and set myself up for a delayed cbet on a turn that is likely to hit your range or if you pick up some equity like a T. GL :) Paul.
    • luizsilveira
      luizsilveira
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.11.2010 Posts: 2,320
      I think it's an *ok* spot. It would be good to have more info on the BTN, as how much he folds to 3bet, how much he steals from BTN, etc. But I still think it's fine.

      Indeed, you could try to have a range more towards suited connectors there - a range that will not be dominated by his calls. If he calls with, say, AQ or AJ you are dominated there and might end up being outkicked quite often. If you have a good read on opponent and a very solid post flop out of position in 3bet pots I don't mind the QJ, but if that's not the case I'd keep selecting my range slightly better to bluff with some playability postflop.

      As played, I think it's ok. The villain in position will seldom give up on that board as he knows your range has the likes of AK/AQ. And giving up is not bad as your bluff was preflop; just bare in mind next time he will be more inclined to call your preflop squeeze (but should respect a bit more your cbet, even though most opponents in this limit won't make this second adaptation).

      I think it's better to do like you did and check/fold than to turn a somewhat cheap and at least breakeven pre flop bluff into a big loss postflop. And it's good to do it every once in a while so they are more likely to give you action when you do have a very strong hand.
    • ShaQQ
      ShaQQ
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.10.2008 Posts: 162
      I agree, although I think there was a mega debate on 2+2 a while ago regarding squeezing QJ, and it ended up as a 50 50 in favour and against, I can totally see the merits in squeezing QJ as you say with the correct information, although after being called I think I cbet this board say 35-40% and check behind to delay the cbet on the turn, there's a load you can represent and turn your hand into a semi bluff with a load of fold equity. Although I don't disagree with cbetting the flop, but to do it 100% of the time I feel is a mistake. I think we could go on though :P It's close!

      Regards, Paul.
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      Preflop you should squeeze way bigger. I think $0.70 is a decent amount here. You 3bet so small that you are just setting yourself up for a 3way 3bet pot stuck between 2 opponents.

      Since you managed to get it HU IP with that sizing though I think you should continue with a cbet on that super dry board. You actually need him to fold his air to be profitable with the cbet because you only have Q high. If he folds K high and Q high splits you are golden. Sometimes he would fold his weak Ax hands so all the more reason to cbet bluff there. Yes, you will get called by pairs but against 55 or lower you have 9 outs + backdoors and position which means you will usually realize your equity and not get pushed of your hand.
    • luizsilveira
      luizsilveira
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.11.2010 Posts: 2,320
      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      Preflop you should squeeze way bigger. I think $0.70 is a decent amount here. You 3bet so small that you are just setting yourself up for a 3way 3bet pot stuck between 2 opponents.

      Since you managed to get it HU IP with that sizing though I think you should continue with a cbet on that super dry board. You actually need him to fold his air to be profitable with the cbet because you only have Q high. If he folds K high and Q high splits you are golden. Sometimes he would fold his weak Ax hands so all the more reason to cbet bluff there. Yes, you will get called by pairs but against 55 or lower you have 9 outs + backdoors and position which means you will usually realize your equity and not get pushed of your hand.
      Spot on about the sizing. In these limits it could be even like $0.75 considering it's a squeeze.

      On the flop, I don't totally dislike cbetting. Villain's call raise and call 3bet does bend him towards a pocket pair, which he *should* let go. But I often think cbetting flop then giving up on the turn is worse than giving up on the flop, because such a board might get called one street so so often even by 77/88 that if we do bet flop I think we should just barrel most cards. And without any reads on villain or history that can be close to suicidal, turning a marginal spot pre in a disaster vs. a villian that calls with TT three times even if a K peels on the river...
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      Originally posted by luizsilveira
      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      Preflop you should squeeze way bigger. I think $0.70 is a decent amount here. You 3bet so small that you are just setting yourself up for a 3way 3bet pot stuck between 2 opponents.

      Since you managed to get it HU IP with that sizing though I think you should continue with a cbet on that super dry board. You actually need him to fold his air to be profitable with the cbet because you only have Q high. If he folds K high and Q high splits you are golden. Sometimes he would fold his weak Ax hands so all the more reason to cbet bluff there. Yes, you will get called by pairs but against 55 or lower you have 9 outs + backdoors and position which means you will usually realize your equity and not get pushed of your hand.
      Spot on about the sizing. In these limits it could be even like $0.75 considering it's a squeeze.

      On the flop, I don't totally dislike cbetting. Villain's call raise and call 3bet does bend him towards a pocket pair, which he *should* let go. But I often think cbetting flop then giving up on the turn is worse than giving up on the flop, because such a board might get called one street so so often even by 77/88 that if we do bet flop I think we should just barrel most cards. And without any reads on villain or history that can be close to suicidal, turning a marginal spot pre in a disaster vs. a villian that calls with TT three times even if a K peels on the river...
      Well, for barreling you need some info. I mean, some opponents 3bet TT+ in the blinds so he has hands like AJ/AQ, 99 or lower only in his range. Some flat even QQ and AK so you get less folds. I think if our hand was AK you could check because you beat all his other A high and K high and have good equity vs small PPs, while QJ has a lot less showdown value but good bluff value vs the same range.

      Even if you think of it from our opponent's perspective, how light will you float someone that has 3bet preflop and now cbets there? Don't you fold your KQs type hands? I think that because we 3bet to a smaller amount his calling range there is wider so bluffing makes sense. If Hero had 3bet to 0.70 or more then bluffing is harder because now our opponent has less weak hands imo...
    • luizsilveira
      luizsilveira
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.11.2010 Posts: 2,320
      Originally posted by EmanuelC16[...]

      Even if you think of it from our opponent's perspective, how light will you float someone that has 3bet preflop and now cbets there? Don't you fold your KQs type hands? I think that because we 3bet to a smaller amount his calling range there is wider so bluffing makes sense. If Hero had 3bet to 0.70 or more then bluffing is harder because now our opponent has less weak hands imo...
      Well, I don't even have a 3bet calling range out of position.

      I'm not sure how much we can count on reasoning what the villain "should" do. Just the other day one guy called my squeeze from SB (exacly like OP) with 55 and called down all three streets to the shove with 4th pair.

      In NL5 people are hugely unbalanced so there are those who call 3bets with all pocket pairs to set mine and always fold to cbets, there are those who would peel every flop. I do reckon cbetting might be ok to find out who is who.

      For some time, I thought that just barrelling first opportunity I'd get lots of folds (which is true) and would know my villains if they called light, plus would establish image to valuebet thinly for the rest of the session. But now I think taking the slow lane has it's merits; the squeeze pre is hardly a big -EV spot and by not spewing post-flop we keep it that way - but we learn a bit of our opponent. Probably a couple of orbits later I'd 3bet again to try to narrow down his calling frequency and then cbet expecting a bit more respect since I've given up before with air.

      Both approaches have their merits and even sticking with "always one or the other" might be bad. Sorry to keep it long but I've said this all just to say I think until the point we have a better post-flop play on 3bets pot turns and rivers (to know when to barrel to collect the dead money etc.) it's fine as well to just check and give up.

      By the way, thanks for the discussions we've been having around the hands here. I've been learning quite a bit from seeing a different perspective; don't take my reasoning wrong, I'm a lawyer and sometimes I like to play the devil's advocate :f_cool:
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      Originally posted by luizsilveira

      Both approaches have their merits and even sticking with "always one or the other" might be bad. Sorry to keep it long but I've said this all just to say I think until the point we have a better post-flop play on 3bets pot turns and rivers (to know when to barrel to collect the dead money etc.) it's fine as well to just check and give up.
      This!

      The preflop squeeze is +EV imo. Postflop, unless you are sure your bets or calls are +EV you can indeed just give up and remain with the +EV action preflop. Usually though I take the aggressive approach when I can. Also, depending on hands before I might reconsider this. Only from seeing a hand it's hard to say what the best play would be. If there's even like 5% chance the guy is tilted I might change my plan completely.
    • ShaQQ
      ShaQQ
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.10.2008 Posts: 162
      I think every point here is spot on, however I think the decision is more than it's a spot to squeeze so squeeze, as mentioned previously you need far more information on opponents and a plan on future streets, it might also depend on how many hands you have in your squeezing range, if it's a narrow Ax range then I prefer the delayed cbet route if the flop is this dry, with the opportunity of picking up equity on further streets and turn your hand into a profitable semi bluff or betting for value, however if you have a very loose squeezing range then I cbet the flop far more, taking into account opponents tendencies also, but expect it to be profitable.
      In terms of having QJo in your squeezing range and say for example you semi bluff turn and hit, I don't think it's a spot to go broke on the river either.
      Apologies if my response is vague, my head is mashed from trying to explain my thoughts and failing miserably :)

      p.s. I think what I'm trying to say is you need to have a balanced squeezing range and based on the size of that range take appropriate lines post flop.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Hello Shady9966,

      Preflop: Well, even if you squeeze here then why do you do so small? :) You practically inviting them to Call you and ain't forcing them to make mistakes. I'd most likely even squeeze something like to $0,80.

      As played
      Postflop: Most likely I'd also rather consider giving it up, his range is going to be towards PPs and especially with you giving that great odds. :D Unless I know a bit more about the opponent I'd rather give it up, we can't represent much on the board either and we had a perfect spot of squeeze and obviously our raise size overall wasn't that huge to represent a strong hand.

      Best Regards.