[NL20-NL50] 50NL JJ against aggressive player ip

    • Kaitz20
      Kaitz20
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      Full Tilt Poker, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 9 Players
      LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

      UTG+1: $10
      UTG+2: $49.75
      MP1: $32.80
      MP2: $59.30
      CO: $27.70
      Hero (BTN): $59.75
      SB: $50
      BB: $64.75
      UTG: $47.70

      Pre-Flop: J:spade: J:heart: dealt to Hero (BTN)
      3 folds, MP1 calls $0.50, 2 folds, Hero raises to $2.25, SB folds, BB raises to $8, MP1 folds, Hero calls $5.75

      Flop: ($16.75) 5:club: 3:diamond: Q:club: (2 Players)
      BB bets $10.50, Hero calls $10.50

      Turn: ($37.75) 6:heart: (2 Players)
      BB bets $46.25 and is All-In, Hero folds

      BB was aggressive and I hadn´t seen him doing anything crazy.
      His stats: 23/14/23 (his flop and turn aggressions were infinite) in 65 hands
      Since Thorsten is Fullring guru, maybe you can comment that hand.
      Don´t really like to move all-in with jacks on Fullring, so I decided not to 4-bet.
      Flop wasn´t so horrible, no K and A. He makes usual contibet, which I probably can call and then pushes on the turn. Nothing I can´t do here probably?
  • 21 replies
    • chenny8888
      chenny8888
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.10.2007 Posts: 19,324
      turn's an easy fold.

      ok, blind vs button, flopplay IP is fine
    • Gungunhana
      Gungunhana
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.02.2007 Posts: 429
      Maybe I´m being too tight but I would fold pf after his reraise. What are you aiming at, set mining?
    • Kaitz20
      Kaitz20
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      Aggressive player would defend his blind probably with 99+, AQ+
      Especially when he thinks that I´m trying to isolate the player.
      I´m not calling for set, but because I have position and I don´t think that he would play bet flop, bet turn, so I can either play call flop and bet turn or check behind and hopefully take free showdown.
    • chenny8888
      chenny8888
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.10.2007 Posts: 19,324
      Originally posted by Kaitz20
      Aggressive player would defend his blind probably with 99+, AQ+
      Especially when he thinks that I´m trying to isolate the player.
      I´m not calling for set, but because I have position and I don´t think that he would play bet flop, bet turn, so I can either play call flop and bet turn or check behind and hopefully take free showdown.
      QFT!

      if you're not doing this btw, you should be 4bet/folding JJ in this spot. folding pf to the 3bet is far too tight button vs blind IMO, and is super-exploitable.
    • aciddrop
      aciddrop
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.10.2006 Posts: 1,519
      Agreed. Your equity preflop against the range you suggest, 99+, AQ+, is 50%, so you can't fold. If his AF is 23, he is hyper, so if you 4bet, you will be all in against him every time.
    • chenny8888
      chenny8888
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.10.2007 Posts: 19,324
      well not in this exact spot, but if we were deeper i could do a 4bet/fold. but IMO a call always > 4bet in position for me.
    • Thorsten77
      Thorsten77
      Black
      Joined: 28.05.2006 Posts: 12,896
      I like the preflop and flop play. The turn is not that clear. Playing at higher limits, I'd often call against very agressive players, as they put pressure on you by shoving AK here to get middle pairs to fold. However, I assume that most players at your limit won't bluff-shove the turn. Further, your read indicates, that he's playing aggressive, but solid, so he will often value shove AQ, QQ+ in this spot. Hence, I'd also fold the turn. nh

      @Kaitz: We tried to contact you by email but you didn't answer yet. How can we contact you (ICQ, Skype?).
    • Gungunhana
      Gungunhana
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.02.2007 Posts: 429
      Thorsten77- the SHC for FR tables puts JJ on raise/call20 rule in all positions. I know that SHC is only a guide line but up to where is it valid to divert from it?
    • Kaitz20
      Kaitz20
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      @Thorsten

      Don´t read my email very often. I´ll check that out and answer asap:)

      Edit: Answered to Markus.
    • srohack
      srohack
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.12.2006 Posts: 1,908
      Originally posted by chenny8888




      if you're not doing this btw, you should be 4bet/folding JJ in this spot. folding pf to the 3bet is far too tight button vs blind IMO, and is super-exploitable.
      4 beting/folding jj in this spot is the weakest play i can imagine here . if you 4bet here jj you are doing it for value and you must call a shove otherwise you are turning your hand into a bluff . so you have to decide if you 4bet/call or just call his 3bet imo but i wouldnt consider 4bet/fold ...
    • srohack
      srohack
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      Joined: 02.12.2006 Posts: 1,908
      @kaitz
      enter on skype
    • chenny8888
      chenny8888
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      Joined: 03.10.2007 Posts: 19,324
      lol, i mean with deeper stacks.

      if someone 5bets you, it's an eaaaasy fold with JJ.
    • srohack
      srohack
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.12.2006 Posts: 1,908
      why would you turn your hand into a bluff when it has good value by itself and you can setmine profitable with deeper stacks . you can do this with air like a suited connector but not with jacks imo
    • chenny8888
      chenny8888
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      Joined: 03.10.2007 Posts: 19,324
      because if the stacks are deeper you can 4bet a wider amount of hands. this will keep him from 3betting you very wide, and the metagame advantage from this will be worth it.

      like i said though, before... in position i'm far happier to call with JJ... so...


      i'm saying OOP (and also sometimes IP), blind vs blind/blind vs button, i would 4bet/fold with JJ with 150-200BB stacks. otherwise we should call his 3bet. in any case, folding is the most wrong choice. sorry if there was some confusion here.
    • Thorsten77
      Thorsten77
      Black
      Joined: 28.05.2006 Posts: 12,896
      Originally posted by Gungunhana
      Thorsten77- the SHC for FR tables puts JJ on raise/call20 rule in all positions. I know that SHC is only a guide line but up to where is it valid to divert from it?
      Well, the SHC' Call 20 rule only considers playing a hand for set value. However, I think JJ is stronger than say 33 - with 33, I'd only play for set value, but with JJ I can have the best hand pretty often.
    • Gungunhana
      Gungunhana
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.02.2007 Posts: 429
      Originally posted by Thorsten77
      Originally posted by Gungunhana
      Thorsten77- the SHC for FR tables puts JJ on raise/call20 rule in all positions. I know that SHC is only a guide line but up to where is it valid to divert from it?
      Well, the SHC' Call 20 rule only considers playing a hand for set value. However, I think JJ is stronger than say 33 - with 33, I'd only play for set value, but with JJ I can have the best hand pretty often.
      Sry but I´m going to pick your brains a bit more. Following your view I´ve run a range of AJ+, TT+ through Equilator, against 99( I suppose that to be the widest range for a normal player to reraise from BB). It gives 59/41, which is still a good equity .
      So should we consider that the call20 rule should apply ,say from 88 down?
      Which should be the cutoff for this rule?
    • chenny8888
      chenny8888
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      Joined: 03.10.2007 Posts: 19,324
      not to go against pokerstrategy entirely, but usually in 3-bet pots i use the call10 rule. this is because it is so easy for the opponent to feel committed, and pay your set off BIG.

      less so in this spot, but say UTG limp/raises and i only have call10 against him with 22, i always call.
    • Gungunhana
      Gungunhana
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.02.2007 Posts: 429
      Originally posted by chenny8888
      not to go against pokerstrategy entirely, but usually in 3-bet pots i use the call10 rule. this is because it is so easy for the opponent to feel committed, and pay your set off BIG.

      less so in this spot, but say UTG limp/raises and i only have call10 against him with 22, i always call.
      Yeah... I can see that on a 3-bet situation, your implied odds are better because if you hit you probably stack him, so you don´t need such big stacks to play profitably, but my doubt is what should be the cutoff point for pairs to be considered in the call rule, in other words which pairs can be played by their own value.
    • chenny8888
      chenny8888
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      Joined: 03.10.2007 Posts: 19,324
      too situational.

      in this given situation, i would say TT and above.

      99 is just too... meh.
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