When to donk bluff the flop after checking behind BB

    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      Taking the fact that very often we are playing against unknowns into account, when do we donkbet the flop as a bluff in a HU pot after we check behind from the BB? Or do we rather check raise in certain spots?
  • 18 replies
    • D0p3Ad1c7
      D0p3Ad1c7
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.06.2007 Posts: 41
      Against unknowns, is there really a reason to bet with complete air? I mean, I like to have a least a gutter, or even over cards to donk flops against unknowns..
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      We should probably lean more towards taking a stab when we have at least some potential, but there definitely must be some general guidelines on how to take such pots down.

      E.g. can we do it on all extremely dry boards? Can we do it with a gutshot on a semi-dry board aso.

      It's just that so often in the videos here on PS the coach says something like "I went for a stab here" or "I think this is a good spot to try and take the pot down" without any tips or guidelines given anywhere here on when it is profitable and under what conditions.
    • lilDave
      lilDave
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      Joined: 24.04.2011 Posts: 264
      I would say the times this strategy would be most useful would be the spots where we flop small immediate equity or strong backdoor equity, hands where we are strong enough to continue but not REALLY strong enough to chk/call, with decent gut-shots and/or backdoor straight + FD's.

      There will be a good# of turn cards we can continue to (semi)bluff on and this line gives us the best chance of protecting and realising our equity aggressively.

      Goes without saying of you will need to donk some of your good hands and draws as well otherwise it leaves you open to a rather easy exploitation, bear in mind as well that the more you donk flop and give up turn the more liberally you are to be floated by shrewd villains.

      But I would never just donk total air, I'd want some backdoor equity or small immediate equity (overcards/gutshots) you need to be able to profitably bet a decent number of turn cards for the strategy to be successful imo
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
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      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      So if we are up against a somewhat weak player (possibly loose both preflop and postflop), leading out on the flop with air is not too good an idea, right?
    • lilDave
      lilDave
      Bronze
      Joined: 24.04.2011 Posts: 264
      Originally posted by Avatars91
      So if we are up against a somewhat weak player (possibly loose both preflop and postflop), leading out on the flop with air is not too good an idea, right?
      personally I think donking complete air is never a good idea. I don't mind the thoguht of peeling a raise form the BB with like KJs and then donking a 469 flop with a backdoor or something like that, overcards and a backdoor s+f draw.

      But donking something like 22 on 47J or 56s on 4JT or w/e is pretty bad vs any villain imo.
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
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      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      I would refrain from using "never" regarding such advice but basically I got the idea – with good reads only. Thanks!
    • lilDave
      lilDave
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      Joined: 24.04.2011 Posts: 264
      Originally posted by Avatars91
      I would refrain from using "never" regarding such advice but basically I got the idea – with good reads only. Thanks!
      yh for sure I mean you could have complete airball but have a very strong reason to think the guy would fold to a bet, that would be a fine spot ofc.

      I guess what I meant was when I'm selecting which times to donkbet "light" i'd randomise my selections by my backdoor equity

      Oh, and I'll do anything for money as well :D
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
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      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      Thank you a lot for your advice!

      Oh, and I'll do anything for money as well :D


      That makes at least two of us :D
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,694
      In a HU pot I am potting the Flop on every single dry board. Players don't fight for the pot at all when they only invest 1 BB.

      In a 3 way pot I probably bluff at most dry paired boards. It is also dependent on the other two players. I also lead out with any pair and any gutshot
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      But I would never just donk total air, I'd want some backdoor equity or small immediate equity (overcards/gutshots) you need to be able to profitably bet a decent number of turn cards for the strategy to be successful imo


      In a HU pot I am potting the Flop on every single dry board. Players don't fight for the pot at all when they only invest 1 BB.


      The fact that there are such completely different opinions among coaches is what causes me trouble deciding upon how to act in such situations.

      What is your argumentation regarding each strategy? Why is pot-size donking every single flop against unknowns (or even all players ? That's probably not what you meant) a good idea and why would donking flops with only some additional equity be a better way? Is there a way how to prove that either approach is good / better?
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,694
      lildave's advice is good for raised pots.

      but I think in general people do not fight so hard for limped pots so I would bluff at dry boards almost always esp if its heads up. of cos this could vary from opponent to opponent, esp if the opponent is a calling station.

      im close to 100% bluffing at paired boards vs almost anybody and also boards that have 0 straight draws.
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
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      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      So all in all you suggest donking any flop against unknowns and then differentiate between opponents who you can keep playing like that against and opponents against whom such play should be used with caution?

      im close to 100% bluffing at paired boards vs almost anybody and also boards that have 0 straight draws.


      Surely not calling stations?
    • lilDave
      lilDave
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      Joined: 24.04.2011 Posts: 264
      why would you need to bet pot? on dry board where they hit the oppo so infrequently could you not just bet half pot and get the same amount of folds? Or do you notice a dramatic difference inthe amount of fold you get between 66% and 100% pot in these spots?

      I think it's great that everyone has such contrasting views. I speak hands with some of my best friends who are world class players and they often say, "wtf that has got to be bad?" and vica versa.

      Everyone has their own "game strategy" and as you play over time certain things you do just work really nicely with your overall style, things that if me or MBML tried to do we'd be unsuccessful with as stylistically it just doesn't make sense with the way we play overall. Doesn't make either strategy right or wrong, just right or wrong in the hands of a certain person.

      This is my favorite thing about the game is it's objectiveness, I know this seems like a wishy-washy answer but as long as you keep constantly analyzing the individual elements and be ready to change things up then you'll always have a slightly unique and adaptable style.
    • maheepsangari
      maheepsangari
      Gold
      Joined: 08.06.2010 Posts: 2,163
      Hi,

      So let me get this right, you wanna donk on a flop after checking behind and there is just one opponent which is why you are HU and obviously nobody has initiative.

      So when this one player limped and everyone else folds and you wanna donk the flop why not just raise him pre-flop and take the pot down right then. He open limped so he's not holding something great and wants to see the flop make it difficult for him. If he calls, you have initiative and take the pot down with a C-Bet unless he is really a calling station.
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,694
      hm I find that when opponents bet weakly in limped pots they are not really strong. potting allows u to rep the nuts always. I do bluff other regs quite frequently when they bet out half pot in limped pots, it just looks extremely weak. Anyone with the nuts will be potting to build the pot.

      of cos against less competent opponents betting smaller works

      I'm raising a limper with a wide range BBvSB if he limp/folds or folds to cbets ver frequently. Any two cards is fine if he fulfills this criteria.

      However, if he is the type who tends to be more of a station, I prefer to check behind. A common mindset of bad players is that they feel the need to stick around more if they have invested more money in the pot. Whereas they are more inclined to give up in limped pots since "Oh I only put 1BB in the pot, I don't really care I just want to see a flop and get lucky."
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
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      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      I do bluff other regs quite frequently when they bet out half pot in limped pots, it just looks extremely weak. Anyone with the nuts will be potting to build the pot.


      It seems that you are talking about multiway pots, right? Since regs don't usually limp preflop.

      But I also would like to ask again – do you really suggest such a play against calling stations? Say, someone with a WTS of 30 and above?
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,694
      yes im only referring to regs, regs do limp behind fishes or complete the SB or check in their BB sometimes. and i think 75% of the time they are heavily capped when they do not pot. After all there would probably be a fish in the hand since its a limped pot, why would they not pot and go for max value?

      Obviously not relevant for fish, fish can bet any sizing with any hand
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
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      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      But do you think that leading out with a potsize bet on a 2way flop against calling stations with a WTS of 30 is still doable?