[NL2-NL10] NL4; SH: 44 agnst utg raise

    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      IPoker, $0.02/$0.04 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 5 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

      SB: $4.74 (118.5 bb)
      BB: $6.45 (161.3 bb)
      MP: $5 (125 bb)
      Hero (CO): $5 (125 bb)
      BTN: $4.21 (105.3 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is CO with 4 4
      MP raises to $0.12, Hero folds, BTN calls $0.12, 2 folds

      Flop: ($0.30) J J T (2 players)
      MP bets $0.27, BTN folds

      Results: $0.30 pot ($0.02 rake)
      Final Board: J J T
      MP mucked and won $0.28 ($0.16 net)
      BTN mucked and lost (-$0.12 net)

      Our opponent seems to be a decent player.

      The question is: could this be a good spot for a light 3bet? Or should we just call for set value (the player in the BB is a fish)?

      Can we even call small pairs for set value in 6max games?
  • 18 replies
    • eXtremeACE
      eXtremeACE
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.02.2011 Posts: 267
      Call that for set value, don't worry much about light 3-betting at micros, especially at NL4. Players usually play face up, and mostly 3-bet/4-bet value hands, rarely do they have polarized 3-bet ranges.

      Can we even call small pairs for set value in 6max games?

      Yes, if there are few conditions that we met. Firstly, against who do you think you have bigger chances of extracting value and playing for a stack if you hit your set (7.5 to 1), against a 82/32 fish, or 8/7 nit? Nit, because they will usually open pretty strong, and when they hit they won't be able to get out of pot easily.

      Therefore
      Our opponent seems to be a decent player.
      should make you want to go for set value even more, you don't want to go for set value vs fish who opens with crap and fold 90% time..

      the player in the BB is a fish
      If you're pretty sure he'll call if you call, even better.. Bigger likelihood that some of them come up with a strong hand and you can stack him..

      To recap, I think setminning can be profitable in 6max if you choose your spots carefully. Don't just call that raise because 20x rule applies there, take a better look and ask yourself "Do I think I'll be able to stack off this opponent easily if I hit?" if the answer is yes, call that OR, if not I'd fold.

      Just my thinking, wait for someone's others,
      -eXtremeACE
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      Extremely useful advice regarding setmining, eXtremeACE! Thanks for that.

      I didn't, however, understand why light 3betting is not a good option. Our opponent might be raising hands like KQ, KJ, 22-99, AT or something like that - hands that he would fold against a 3bet and not go broke postflop that lightly, wich in turn would speak against a preflop call.
    • eXtremeACE
      eXtremeACE
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.02.2011 Posts: 267
      Extremely useful advice regarding setmining, eXtremeACE! Thanks for that.

      I didn't, however, understand why light 3betting is not a good option. Our opponent might be raising hands like KQ, KJ, 22-99, AT or something like that - hands that he would fold against a 3bet and not go broke postflop that lightly, wich in turn would speak against a preflop call.


      You're welcome, I hope most I wrote is correct, if it isn't someone will probably correct me.

      hands that he would fold against a 3bet

      Well the point is, most of the players at NL4 have really high fold to 3bet% and play a pretty face up.. Against these I think you're losing value out of 44 by 3betting with it, because he'll FOLD. Why not 3bet with 72o if he's going to fold? See what I'm thinking?

      44 (aka small PPs) is great because you don't need to give a way strenght (you just call) but can turn your hand into a monster (set) postflop.

      On the other hands lets assume you have players who's got low fold to 3bet %, would you like to 3bet against them? Well, I won't. Think about it, you'll only making a pot size much bigger with a hand that hits only 1 in 7.5 times..

      KQ, AQ, KJs, AJs, JJ+ are the hands I like to 3bet, because they play pretty well HU IP, and you can hit much more frequently then with PPs..

      eXtremeACE
    • ShaQQ
      ShaQQ
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.10.2008 Posts: 162
      3betting light in this spot isn't advisable but you should absolutely set mine here (for added reason there's a fish in the BB), I think the times to consider light 3betting is when a player with a wide stealing range is opening from the BTN or CO and you can exploit his/her fold to 3b tendencies, also helps to balance your 3b range. A lot of 3betting light is villain dependent, especially OOP, but I do tend to pummel CO opens relentlessly on the button especially if you have a decent hand sample and good reads on your opponent. In this spot though Call > 3b > fold.
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      I understand what you're saying, but if my opponent's range is not tight and he would most often fold to my 3bet, do I have the necessary implied odds to setmine? If I don't have the implied odds but do have a lot of fold equity preflop, it makes more sense to 3bet than to call.

      KQ, AQ, KJs, AJs, JJ+ are the hands I like to 3bet, because they play pretty well HU IP, and you can hit much more frequently then with PPs..


      Aren't most of these hands exactly the ones you should flat IP? Unless you're 3betting against a fish, you are quite often dominated when called.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Hello Avatars91,

      Why do you want to 3bet here? :) Why not just Call for set value. Should be pretty standard spot to do that and just play postflop. And why is 6max different from FR that we can't Call for set value?

      Best Regards.
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      Because I think our opponent's range is too wide for us to get much out of our sets when we do hit (basically, we might not have the necessary implied odds).

      why is 6max different from FR that we can't Call for set value?


      Of course we can, but in 6max there is a large difference in ranges because they are generally much looser and there are also only 6 other players that can overcall.

      I might just be frustrated because I get paid off so rarely when I do call and hit.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Well, you definitely get the set mining purpose totally wrong. Then you rather should fold your hand directly if you get so frustrated about them. Especially those small ones.

      You are actually getting very good implied odds there since we need to Call $0,12 and according to that we getting like 36:1 odds. :D Which is even more than correct. According to the normal Call rule which is Call20, so why ain't we getting the implied odds? Do you have any math or thought behind your sentence?
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      I just know that if both I and my opponent have exactly 20 times the raise size, I can call if I assume to stack him 1 in 2 times (I've heard it somewhere here on the forums, please do correct this if it is incorrect).

      In this case we have more, so it's better and yes, I probably should have called. I understand it now. I just think that these spots are often close as whether or not we have the necessary implied odds, correct me if it is not so.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      For a set you need 7,5:1 odds, if we use Call20 rule then it means 20:1. So you can make your assumptions. :) With this hand it was much better.
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      I will be honest and just tell you that I didn't understand your post :D
      But I really have read the article about odds.

      I'll try to break it down to what I do understand:

      We hit our set 1 in 7.5 times, right? Thus our odds for hitting it are 1:7.5, right?

      What do you mean by saying that Call20 means 20:1?
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by Avatars91
      I will be honest and just tell you that I didn't understand your post :D
      But I really have read the article about odds.

      I'll try to break it down to what I do understand:

      We hit our set 1 in 7.5 times, right? Thus our odds for hitting it are 1:7.5, right?

      What do you mean by saying that Call20 means 20:1?
      Well, 7,5:1 odds means = For example we do get such odds. Then we have to get paid every time we Call. If you get something like Call20 then it's almost we have to get the money every 3rd time. Hopefully explained now a bit more clearly. :D
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      Yeah :D Facepalm.

      But anyway, I think these kind of spots are often close if we are really getting 20:1 odds. If the range is wide, I'd say we must think really hard about the spot, don't you think?
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by Avatars91
      Yeah :D Facepalm.

      But anyway, I think these kind of spots are often close if we are really getting 20:1 odds. If the range is wide, I'd say we must think really hard about the spot, don't you think?
      If I am getting Call20 rule then I am usually calling no matter what, even against good players. With time you will adjust your play and maybe even start playing back on them on some specific boards. But before that you can just use the fit&fold strategy.
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      So the key here to avoid potential problems regarding the implied odds is adjusting over time?

      Thanks again, you are of great help to me!
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by Avatars91
      So the key here to avoid potential problems regarding the implied odds is adjusting over time?

      Thanks again, you are of great help to me!
      Nope, if we getting the Call20 then with ain't doing a mistake with the Call. :) That's practically the rule. But just in future you will most likely play even more profitable with the PPs since you also will take stabs on the opponents on specific boards, against specific reads/stats and opponents.
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      Nope, if we getting the Call20 then with ain't doing a mistake with the Call. That's practically the rule.


      That can't possibly be true.
      It might be most of the time, but imagine an opponent who is raising extremely wide (50, 70, whatever) and misses extremely often, but turns into a folding station after missing postflop. Our call then makes no sense. This example is of course an exaggeration, but it is not necessarily something impossible. Even if this is an unrealistic opponent, then there are a lot opponents that are still wide and miss often, thus fold often.

      My point is, we can be making a mistake by blindly following the Call20 rule every once in a while.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by Avatars91
      Nope, if we getting the Call20 then with ain't doing a mistake with the Call. That's practically the rule.


      That can't possibly be true.
      It might be most of the time, but imagine an opponent who is raising extremely wide (50, 70, whatever) and misses extremely often, but turns into a folding station after missing postflop. Our call then makes no sense. This example is of course an exaggeration, but it is not necessarily something impossible. Even if this is an unrealistic opponent, then there are a lot opponents that are still wide and miss often, thus fold often.

      My point is, we can be making a mistake by blindly following the Call20 rule every once in a while.
      With small PPs seems to be even fine to fold if you ain't sure in the play and if you get paid. :) But with hands like 66+ or whatsoever I'd still Call. :f_biggrin: