[NL2-NL10] NL4; SH TT, is this a good c-bet size?

    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      IPoker, $0.02/$0.04 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 5 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

      BB: $10.65 (266.3 bb)
      MP: $2.13 (53.2 bb)
      CO: $3.04 (76 bb)
      Hero (BTN): $4 (100 bb)
      SB: $3.56 (89 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is BTN with T T
      CO posts BB OOP, MP folds, CO checks, Hero raises to $0.16, SB calls $0.14, BB folds, CO calls $0.12

      Flop: ($0.54) 4 9 2 (3 players)
      SB checks, CO checks, Hero bets $0.36, 2 folds

      Results: $0.54 pot ($0.03 rake)
      Final Board: 4 9 2
      CO mucked and lost (-$0.18 net)
      Hero mucked T T and won $0.51 ($0.35 net)
      SB mucked and lost (-$0.16 net)

      Is this a good c-bet size? Should it have been smaller/bigger? What factors should influence this?
  • 14 replies
    • eXtremeACE
      eXtremeACE
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.02.2011 Posts: 267
      Is this a good c-bet size? Should it have been smaller/bigger? What factors should influence this?


      Hey Avatars91,

      I think it's fine (2/3 pot). About factors, you should size it depending on whether or not the flop is dry/wet and depending on villains in the hand.

      For example, the wetter the board, the bigger your c-bet needs to be, to make them fold their FDs and 2nd pair hands etc.. On JsTs8d, I would bet much bigger than on K28 rainbow. Also the # of opponents in hand also influence this decision, the more # the bigger c-bet needs to be..

      Best regards,
      -eXtremeACE
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      the wetter the board, the bigger your c-bet needs to be, to make them fold their FDs and 2nd pair hands


      I suppose this is not the case when we have a hand that has some equity like in this case. At least the part about folding because we actually want them to chase those draws and pay us off with 2nd pair hands, right?

      The problem I'm facing is: what's the best sizing if we wan't them to call with weaker hands on a board like this, for example. Would someone with T9 call this bet? Would A9 call? Would pocket 8's call? You know - how to find the optimum bet size for these kind of goals.
    • eXtremeACE
      eXtremeACE
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.02.2011 Posts: 267
      I suppose this is not the case when we have a hand that has some equity like in this case. At least the part about folding because we actually want them to chase those draws and pay us off with 2nd pair hands, right?


      Actually, I should have said "to make their FDs not profitable to chase".. You want them to chase them, but you don't want to give them good pot odds to do so, so that their play is -EV for them, and +EV for you..

      If you would to bet small in 3 way pot when there is a straight and flushdraw possible, most often you'll give them good pot odds to call and suck you out. Especially in 3 handed way, 2nd player can call because he's a fish, and then 3rd player will have a dream odds to chase that FD/SD down..

      The problem I'm facing is: what's the best sizing if we wan't them to call with weaker hands on a board like this, for example. Would someone with T9 call this bet? Would A9 call? Would pocket 8's call? You know - how to find the optimum bet size for these kind of goals.


      That really depends on opponent IMO. Calling station will call you down with anything, TAG usually only if he has some outs.. It's impossible to say will he call with T9 when you bet 0.36$ into 0.54$ because it's really player-dependent. Some give up easily, some stick to their 3rd pair. You should make notes about their play, and you'll have much bigger edge on them in the future.

      I think this is thin-value we're talking here, don't worry too much about it at these levels. You'll earn most money by playing big value hands and extracting money out of them. Just remember that with SD/FD you want to make their play unprofitable, and by betting 2/3 pot you can't go wrong.
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      No, of course I don't want to bet small. I'm just trying to figure out whether or not there is an optimal bet size that does not force my opponents out of their draws and does not offer good odds for them to chase those draws at the same time.

      For example, betting 2 times the pot size makes it very unprofitable for our opponents to chase draws but at the same time it also makes them fold next to always (this is obviously an extreme example).

      Also, and this is what bothers me very much, a possible flush draw does not necessarily mean our opponent has it. Actually, very often he doesn't, and therefore betting too much on the flop just because there is a possible flushdraw might force out other hands that would have called a smaller bet (I might be wrong about this).
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Hello Avatars91,

      Most likely myself I'd do bigger preflop ~$0,20 while there is a dead blind poster and also ~$0,40 on the flop. :) But overall it ain't a huge mistake.

      Best Regards.
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      Is the standard suggested preflop raise saize not 3BBs+1 for each limper/deadposter?

      and also ~$0,40 on the flop.


      This is what I want to analyze a bit. What are the reasons why $0.36 in this spot is a small mistake, and why is $0.40 the correct play.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by Avatars91
      Is the standard suggested preflop raise saize not 3BBs+1 for each limper/deadposter?

      and also ~$0,40 on the flop.


      This is what I want to analyze a bit. What are the reasons why $0.36 in this spot is a small mistake, and why is $0.40 the correct play.
      Cause we still want to protect our hand. The higher the CB is the more we are forcing the opponent to make mistake. Here we might even should consider doing it like $0,44 even. :) With very small Bet you are giving the opponents maybe even correct odds for FD or something similar. Read the article about implied odds. :)

      And of course we want to get more value from them in case they do have a hand. :D
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      Yeah, but the bigger the CB, the more FE it creates. I'm struggling with finding the optimal bet size in order not to force them out of the pot and get maximum value at the same time.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by Avatars91
      Yeah, but the bigger the CB, the more FE it creates. I'm struggling with finding the optimal bet size in order not to force them out of the pot and get maximum value at the same time.
      If they have a hand they are never willing to fold it anyway. Especially on those limits. :)
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      Let's assume we are in a 3way pot against the same opponents in each example

      1)

      If the board was a rainbow K 8 2, we'd bet 1/2 pot
      If the board is 4 9 2 with two diamonds, you suggest a slightly higher bet than 2/3 pot
      If the board was 5 6 7 of one suit, would you suggest a pot size bet?

      2)

      Comparing the 4 9 2 with two diamonds and a board like K 9 2 with two diamonds, would you suggest the same bet size on both boards? The reason I'm asking is that the second board is one that an opponent is more likely to have hit because of the face card.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      If the board was a rainbow K 8 2, we'd bet 1/2 pot

      Well, why should we Bet here small cause we have a weak hand? Most likely I'd still Bet a bit bigger not just 1/2 pot size. Which may sometimes even induce raises.

      If the board is 4 9 2 with two diamonds, you suggest a slightly higher bet than 2/3 pot

      Yes, most likely towards to that.

      If the board was 5 6 7 of one suit, would you suggest a pot size bet?

      I'd be towards the same Bet size as with 492 board. With potting we are just telling them that we already have a made hand. Don't adjust the bet sizes according your hand but rather keep them somewhat in the same size with all made hands and non-made hands.

      Very dry boards we can consider CBetting a bit less or for example against smaller stacks.

      Comparing the 4 9 2 with two diamonds and a board like K 9 2 with two diamonds, would you suggest the same bet size on both boards? The reason I'm asking is that the second board is one that an opponent is more likely to have hit because of the face card.

      Well, as I explained earlier. I don't want to induce bluffs and therefore I'd most likely Bet a bit bigger than just 1/2 pot size. But not because I have a weaker hand now since an overcard is possible. Also the board may hit their range but they must also understand that that kind of board hits also our raising range.
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
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      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      Does it mean that in general you suggest only two different bet sizes postflop?
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by Avatars91
      Does it mean that in general you suggest only two different bet sizes postflop?
      Well, I could suggest 10-20 different bet sizes here but I guess I can't really write everything down here. It really depends on the opponent and many different other factors. But usually don't adjust your hand according your hang strength but rather opponents stack/board and the expectations of the opponent how loosely he is capable of Calling.

      Usually when we are against loose opponent then why not just to go for maximum value and Bet/Bet/Bet big since he will have a really wide calling range and our bet is most likely for value.
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      Ok, I'll try to stick to this!

      Thanks alot.