[NL2-NL10] NL4; SH: 77, good spot to 3bet?

    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      IPoker, $0.02/$0.04 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 4 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

      BB: $5.04 (126 bb)
      CO: $6.02 (150.5 bb)
      Hero (BTN): $5.26 (131.5 bb)
      SB: $4.06 (101.5 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is BTN with 7 7
      CO raises to $0.16, Hero raises to $0.48, 2 folds, CO raises to $6.02, Hero folds

      Results: $1.02 pot
      CO mucked and won $1.02 ($0.54 net)

      Our opponent seems to be decent.
      I think this is a good spot to 3bet, right?

      But how do we play medium pocket pairs in such a situation if this is the first time we 3bet our opponent?
  • 15 replies
    • ShaQQ
      ShaQQ
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.10.2008 Posts: 162
      It's an okay spot to 3bet but at 4nl your edge is post flop especially with a hand that has a ton of potential. If your history vs this opponent is that you haven't 3bet, ever, I'd look to start opening your 3betting range especially in a spot similar to this, but would still look to play SC/PP's in position if he opens, exploiting his Cbet% by turning hands into bluffs post flop.
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      So basically, you suggest flatting and playing the hand postflop is better?
    • ShaQQ
      ShaQQ
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.10.2008 Posts: 162
      Pretty much, flat SC/PP's and play post, but as villain is a decent player he/she will probably take into account the fact you haven't 3bet in x amount of hands, so in a spot similar to this you can throw in some hands with less potential post flop for deception and balancing (for the time you have a premium) but at 4nl for the most part this is not necessary.
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      Define "hands with less potential postflop".

      Also, would it not be preferable to 3bet SCs instead of flatting? Flatting them would mean that we probably have to float often, which requires more information on our opponent's postflop tendencies and play in general.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Hello Avatars91,

      Don't really get why do you want to turn your PP into bluff? :) Why not just Call and play for set value. The best option here anyways.

      Best Regards.
    • ShaQQ
      ShaQQ
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.10.2008 Posts: 162
      If you haven't 3bet a "decent" player in say 100 hands, he/she'll give you a ton of respect whenever you do 3bet. So adding ~20% to your 3bet range for this exact situation, excluding PP's and hands that play well post flop, 3bet stuff like 69s/o, J8-K8s/o, 34s-56s, I wouldn't do it though if you're unsure, it'll be covered in videos and articles as you go through the content, if you do decide to 3bet light then take pot control lines post flop and get to SD etc with low to medium strength hands.
      If you think there is a spot to 3bet light and post it, it's best to include stats and general history, it all comes down to the perception of "decent" :P
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      1) Ok, let's assume I call. What do I do on the flop when I miss? With 77 I
      might call some flops, but which to call?

      2) If I have a low pocket pair, can I call for set value CO's raise? His range should be too wide for me to have the necessary implied odds to make a call profitable. Thus I'd prefer to include low PP's into my 3bet range.
    • ShaQQ
      ShaQQ
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.10.2008 Posts: 162
      1) If villain has a high cbet%, boards to call are say low paired boards with a mid card, monotone low boards, good boards for villain to cbet and if you give him credit for knowing this, high card w/ 2 lows and very few draws, the list is fairly large :P But taking into consideration if villain is capable of 2-3 barrelling then playing fit or fold on most flops is fine.

      2) Implied odds are based on opponents stack size, as opposed to range when playing PP's. Have a browse through the content on this site and most of your queries will be answered, the articles are pretty in depth and will cover most if not all situations.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by Avatars91
      1) Ok, let's assume I call. What do I do on the flop when I miss? With 77 I
      might call some flops, but which to call?
      Well, I guess I can't really tell you everything what to do on specific boards. Since for that I would need couple of articles to write. The hand should be played mostly passively without hitting a set and we can easily just fold it postflop. :) And called of course when we have a dry flop and maybe even an overpair.

      2) If I have a low pocket pair, can I call for set value CO's raise? His range should be too wide for me to have the necessary implied odds to make a call profitable. Thus I'd prefer to include low PP's into my 3bet range.

      Why not? :) Just because of his range is wide it doesn't mean that we treat this right away as 3bet pot and would need massive implied odds. You are getting it totally wrong. :) If you say that has a wide stealing range then we are even ahead with our 77, ain't we? :) But it doesn't mean that we have to play for the stacks directly cause we wont be able to go for stacks if he 4bets us, since his 4betting range is going to be much stronger.
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      1) If villain has a high cbet%, boards to call are say low paired boards with a mid card, monotone low boards, good boards for villain to cbet and if you give him credit for knowing this, high card w/ 2 lows and very few draws, the list is fairly large But taking into consideration if villain is capable of 2-3 barrelling then playing fit or fold on most flops is fine.


      Nice input, thanks!

      But about the call20 rule: If I'm not mistaken, it is based upon the assumption that we stack villain 50% of the times we hit when both we and our opponent have exactly 20 times the raise size(correct me if I'm wrong – I actually might be). If not 50% than somewhere near that. And I really don't think we get it in that often when we hit because our villain's range is so wide and he misses so often.

      If you say that has a wide stealing range then we are even ahead with our 77, ain't we?


      Ok, with 77 it is true. But what about 22-55 for example?
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Ok, with 77 it is true. But what about 22-55 for example?

      If you really would play on NL100 or whatsoever where they might really not pay so easily. Then we could talk about folding some of the hands like smaller PPs since we wont get paid so often. But man, we are talking about NL5 where you most likely will get paid anyways unless they really don't hit. :) So with all the PPs we can still get paid if we do hit.

      Guess you are just too much result oriented and frustrated as you said yourself. One of the biggest profit might even come from PPs if you play them correctly. :)
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      You do make a good point.

      I just think that many poker players, good poker players and coaches like you sometimes might underestimate the general micro stakes player field. Of course it's softer than the mid and high stakes, but nowadays the tables seem not to have a large number of fish at them, therefore I am frequently asking these questions about the implied odds aso. I can be totally wrong most of the time, but I do want to get this all correctly.

      I'm sorry for all the millions of additional questions I'm asking.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Don't worry about it. That's why the evaluation forums are for. If you really have just a question about a specific spot or hand then keep them coming. But if we are going to talk about more theory stuff then I'd either advice to use for you the Beginners Course Locker room where I usually talk about the theory or try maybe some discussion boards. Since those answers from my side are going to be really long and it's over my work here. Hopefully you understand it.
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      I understand it! I'm really sorry. I felt bad when typing all these questions and I understood that I am overloading you, but I did it anyway, because here I get the best and fastest input from you professionals. There are actually times when I make a thread in the strategy discussion forum that get's no replies.
      Anyway, thanks! I'll try not to go into too much detail in future.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by Avatars91
      I understand it! I'm really sorry. I felt bad when typing all these questions and I understood that I am overloading you, but I did it anyway, because here I get the best and fastest input from you professionals. There are actually times when I make a thread in the strategy discussion forum that get's no replies.
      Anyway, thanks! I'll try not to go into too much detail in future.
      Don't be sorry, as I said. That's why the forums are for. And whoever isn't using the most of it and asking the question is already doing a mistake. :D Why not to use them if they are for free? :)