[NL2-NL10] NL4; SH AKo SH agnst multitabler 3bet

    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      IPoker, $0.02/$0.04 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 4 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

      Hero (CO): $5.15 (128.8 bb)
      BTN: $5.43 (135.8 bb)
      SB: $5 (125 bb)
      BB: $5 (125 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is CO with A K
      Hero raises to $0.12, 2 folds, BB raises to $0.40, Hero calls $0.28

      Flop: ($0.82) J 7 Q (2 players)
      BB bets $0.48, Hero calls $0.48

      Turn: ($1.78) T (2 players)
      BB checks, Hero bets $1.20, BB calls $1.20

      River: ($4.18) 6 (2 players)
      BB checks, Hero bets $1.50, BB calls $1.50

      Results: $7.18 pot ($0.47 rake)
      Final Board: J 7 Q T 6
      Hero mucked A K and won $6.71 ($3.13 net)
      BB showed T J and lost (-$3.58 net)

      Our opponent is a multitabler with the following stats:
      VP/PFR/AF/3bt/hands 27/20/2.0/3.7/95

      I didn't like the idea of 4betting because that would quite likely isolate us against a stronger range so I called.

      On the flop is the move ok? The flop does hit him but that is true for me as well. If he has a medium pocket or a medium J or Q he would quite often just have to c/f the turn. Therefore I decided to make a move on him because he is a thinking player I would assume.

      The turn is interesting. When he checks I am ready to fold against a c/r, but I still want to bet to get value from FDs or some 2pair hands. He calls.

      On the river I don't think villain has got a flush because he checks again so I figure I am ahead, but in order to get value from AQ, or 2pair I have to bet smallish.

      What do you think about my thought process and play in general?
  • 18 replies
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Hello Avatars91,

      Preflop: Before I come to flop then actually I don't like the Call here in first place. Since the 3bet ain't even that big, just 3.7. So for me it's a standard spot even to rather just fold the hand. With calling and hoping to hit we wont play the hand profitable.

      As played
      Postflop: Don't like the float on the flop with just GS. You can never even be sure what kind of outs are clean for us and this kind of board actually hardly hits his 3betting range. :) So I am just folding directly here. But otherwise not much to comment.

      Best Regards.
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      But the sample size is so small to correctly evaluate his 3bet %, and my stealing range is rather wide. Do you really not put him on bluffs, or 3bets with AJ+, ATs+? Folding seems really, really weak to me. This is a 3bet against a LP raise after all.

      If I assume that he is 3betting much more than just 3.7%, does the float make more sense?

      I know it might sound results-oriented, but look: he actually 3bet TJo.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by Avatars91
      But the sample size is so small to correctly evaluate his 3bet %, and my stealing range is rather wide. Do you really not put him on bluffs, or 3bets with AJ+, ATs+? Folding seems really, really weak to me. This is a 3bet against a LP raise after all.

      If I assume that he is 3betting much more than just 3.7%, does the float make more sense?

      I know it might sound results-oriented, but look: he actually 3bet TJo.
      You mean calling preflop? Then yep, would be more reasonable. But since we don't much about him, neither we wont play profitable the hand by just Calling and hoping for a hit. Nor the idea of floating the flop isn't going to be very good unless we have the expectations or stats that his CB is weak and can easily just Check/Fold the turn.
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      I agree that floating is not too good a play without information about his CB tendencies etc.

      But what I don't understand - are we really supposed to fold AK in every single spot like this and just wait for information about his 3bet? It might take forever to get that information and we would have missed out on so much value by then with our conservative assumption. I would understand if we were talking about a hand like AJo or something but AK in this spot is such a strong hand.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by Avatars91
      I agree that floating is not too good a play without information about his CB tendencies etc.

      But what I don't understand - are we really supposed to fold AK in every single spot like this and just wait for information about his 3bet? It might take forever to get that information and we would have missed out on so much value by then with our conservative assumption. I would understand if we were talking about a hand like AJo or something but AK in this spot is such a strong hand.
      Why should it take forever? :P From already like 50-100 hands you should have a small overview of the opponent how he plays preflop with the 3bets. And doubt that we gonna miss much value while you could easily even be against very strong PPs and will never even know where you stand if you hit your Ace or K or either you will get paid.
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      1) So it would be a standard fold against an unknown?

      2) How do we get to this information about 3betting range fast if all we can do is either look at the statistics, which require a much larger sample size than 100 hands to be even close to the actual percentage, or we have to see a particular hand where our opponent 3bets and folds, which itself is not enough information about his playing tendency because he might have raised a value hand that he is not willing to go broke with preflop. Our 3rd option is to wait for him to 3bet bluff and to actually get to the showdown.

      Neither of these 3 options are both accurate and fast at the same time.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      1) So it would be a standard fold against an unknown?

      Wouldn't say it would be standard but most likely the safest option. Especially on those stakes where they don't 3bet that loose as on higher stakes.

      2) How do we get to this information

      We see the table dynamics and see how often the opponent 3bets? :) So we could even do it without statistics. Usually myself I pay more attention on the dynamics and the opponents than only on statistics.
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      We see the table dynamics and see how often the opponent 3bets


      This approach still requires some time to determine that our opponent is not 3betting light. The reason for that is variance. He just might be getting trash all the time or quite the contrary – he might be 3betting a lot because he's been getting good cards all the time. We can never make an accurate assumption unless we spend a lot of time analysing his play.

      Don't you think that it is standard for a multitabler to 3bet say AJ+ TT+ at the very least in that spot?
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Don't you think that it is standard for a multitabler to 3bet say AJ+ TT+ at the very least in that spot?

      Well, on BB I wouldn't say that. We can easily even play those hands postflop if we see the opponent rather being tighter, especially such hands as TT/JJ and maybe even AJ. Since you exactly put yourself into such a spot when playing on bigger pot postflop and mostly those hands which call dominate you.
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      I'm sorry, could you rephrase that, I didn't fully understand.

      I gave BB the absolute minimum range of AJ+ TT+ for 3betting.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by Avatars91
      I'm sorry, could you rephrase that, I didn't fully understand.

      I gave BB the absolute minimum range of AJ+ TT+ for 3betting.
      I took it as we are villain and we have his range.
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      Just to rephrase and check if I understand what you said correctly - we won't be making too much money if he 3bets with a relatively tight range of TT-JJ and AJo+ because even if we dominate him he won't be playing for too large a pot since he knows our calling range is tight and it is hard to win a lot when we do hit and we often have to fold to a CB?
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by Avatars91
      Just to rephrase and check if I understand what you said correctly - we won't be making too much money if he 3bets with a relatively tight range of TT-JJ and AJo+ because even if we dominate him he won't be playing for too large a pot since he knows our calling range is tight and it is hard to win a lot when we do hit and we often have to fold to a CB?
      Böh, I was talking still about villain not us. :D I said he wont even 3betting always with that kind of range but rather just calling and playing it postflop. Also your rephrase is also correct, neither you wont play profitable in long run by just Calling and hoping for a hit.
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      1) So only when we get to know that he 3bets light in similar spots can we consider playing this hand?

      2) How do we play it if we know he 3bets light? I would tend towards a call because he just folds weaker hands to a 4bet.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      1) So only when we get to know that he 3bets light in similar spots can we consider playing this hand?

      We have to know that the opponent is capable 3betting worse Ax hands, that's the idea, you have know that your equity will be better against his 3betting range. Not only one hand like AQ but as well maybe AJ/AT.

      2) How do we play it if we know he 3bets light? I would tend towards a call because he just folds weaker hands to a 4bet.

      Also would base on the opponent, most likely you could easily just 4bet and even consider playing for the stacks rather than play postflop and just hope to hit, since postflop it's gonna be hard for us to play back against him anyways while he could still have hit and it's a bigger pot. But of course sometimes even flatting would be an option if we have more stats/reads on the opponent.
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      We have to know that the opponent is capable 3betting worse Ax hands, that's the idea, you have know that your equity will be better against his 3betting range. Not only one hand like AQ but as well maybe AJ/AT.


      And if he is 3betting even worse than just smaller Ax than AK like JTo here? Makes sense to keep playing the hand in that case as well.

      Also would base on the opponent, most likely you could easily just 4bet and even consider playing for the stacks rather than play postflop and just hope to hit, since postflop it's gonna be hard for us to play back against him anyways while he could still have hit and it's a bigger pot. But of course sometimes even flatting would be an option if we have more stats/reads on the opponent.


      1) Is the assumption that multitablers who do 3bet worse hands than AK preflop in spots like this most often don't go broke, e.g. 5bet AI, with hands against which we have a lot of equity? Because if this assumption is correct, it makes little sense to go broke with AK there.

      2) Which stats/information do we need to have in order to flat here, and how to use this information?
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      1) Is the assumption that multitablers who do 3bet worse hands than AK preflop in spots like this most often don't go broke, e.g. 5bet AI, with hands against which we have a lot of equity? Because if this assumption is correct, it makes little sense to go broke with AK there.

      Well, nobody was talking about going broke. :P With only expectations we can consider doing it unless you just want to take a flip at the best. :P

      2) Which stats/information do we need to have in order to flat here, and how to use this information?

      CB flop, CB Turn, WTSD, W$SD and many more. But those are practically the basic ones. And of course don't forget table dynamics. :) Is he capable of Check/Raising the turn for example with made hand?
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      Ok, thanks!