[NL2-NL10] nl10 fr KK

    • DrDunne
      DrDunne
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.12.2010 Posts: 3,376
      Party, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 8 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

      Hero (MP3): $19.07 (190.7 bb)
      MP1: $6.22 (62.2 bb)
      MP2: $16.57 (165.7 bb)
      UTG+2: $22.37 (223.7 bb)
      BTN: $10 (100 bb)
      CO: $19.17 (191.7 bb)
      SB: $9.90 (99 bb)
      BB: $15.65 (156.5 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K K
      3 folds, Hero raises to $0.40, 2 folds, SB calls $0.35, BB calls $0.30

      Flop: ($1.20) 6 J 6 (3 players)
      SB bets $1.14, BB calls $1.14, Hero folds

      Turn: ($3.48) 7 (2 players)
      SB bets $8.36, BB calls $8.36

      River: ($20.20) T (2 players)
  • 5 replies
    • Echoes88
      Echoes88
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.09.2008 Posts: 1,665
      Hello!

      I wouldnt fold on the flop- Your most likely ahead. The turn is tricky. That overbet cant convince me. but the call is rather stronger.

      hmmm, What were the players like?
    • luizsilveira
      luizsilveira
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.11.2010 Posts: 2,320
      Hi, DrDunne!

      Indeed a tricky one.

      It would be quite good to have any info on the opponents; how did they play, if they played too many or too few hands preflop, if they did this kind of bet (donk bet) too often, etc.

      On the flop there I'm never folding. The SB's range is trickier as he *could* have a 6, but once the BB calls I don't expect the BB to have it. Looks more like either Jx or a flush draw. Of course, any of them can have JJ.

      If they were decent players, I'd call flop and probably fold turn to that big overbet (even though I think decent players wouldn't overbet there). Looks like a 6 desperate to protect from flush draw; I don't think he would bluff there often and, if he did, we should have seen him doing it before thus have a read on him. And especially after the BB calls, that's a clear fold on the turn.

      Now, if they were really bad players I'd consider raising flop for value/protection. If they have a hand like Jx, a flush draw or even QQ they won't fold and we want to charge max value. The problem with raising is I think we're kind of committed to call their reraise; but anyway, if we just call flop we do so with the intention of letting them bluff out or bet out their Jx so we'd still call most turns unless BB raises it up before it comes to us.

      I'll ask Veriz for a second opinion though as I sometimes have problems interpreting donkbets myself.
    • DrDunne
      DrDunne
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.12.2010 Posts: 3,376
      hi luizsilveira thanks for the evaluation.

      it was an incredibly weak fold and i regret doing it on the flop. my reasoning was that BB called the donkbet which scared me a little because i believe the flat call to be much stronger on this board than the donkbet. i thought if i call, im either going to have to invest a larger amount of money on the turn and not know where i stand, or i'm going to have to fold on the turn and thus waste my call on the flop. i also thought that someone could easily be on the FD here and so if that drops on the turn i will be in a really uncertain situation so i decided to fold to avoid multiway awkward situations on the turn. the players were bad and had practically any 2 cards in their range so i couldn't rule out a 6. when i saw the big overbet on the turn i was happy about the fold because i would not have been comfortable calling that even HU but especially since BB calls as well.

      in your experience, what do you make of overbet shoves like that? do they tend to be extremely strong hands or are they more often "please don't call me" spew-bluffs?
    • luizsilveira
      luizsilveira
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.11.2010 Posts: 2,320
      Originally posted by DrDunne
      hi luizsilveira thanks for the evaluation.

      it was an incredibly weak fold and i regret doing it on the flop. my reasoning was that BB called the donkbet which scared me a little because i believe the flat call to be much stronger on this board than the donkbet. i thought if i call, im either going to have to invest a larger amount of money on the turn and not know where i stand, or i'm going to have to fold on the turn and thus waste my call on the flop. i also thought that someone could easily be on the FD here and so if that drops on the turn i will be in a really uncertain situation so i decided to fold to avoid multiway awkward situations on the turn. the players were bad and had practically any 2 cards in their range so i couldn't rule out a 6. when i saw the big overbet on the turn i was happy about the fold because i would not have been comfortable calling that even HU but especially since BB calls as well.
      Well, you actually gave me very good reasons for raising the flop :D

      Of course, except the fact you think BB's range is strong for calling. I think it could be, but it can be just a J or a FD so I wouldn't be too bugged.

      There is a video of Bogdan on some old hands of mine in which he analyses a very similar hand. I had KK on the BTN vs. the two blinds; but SB was a regular and BB was a fish. Regular donks, fish calls. The board was more connected and this one of yours. I called behind and he said that's the worst play; I should have raised or folded. After this, he spent quite a bit of time calculating the ranges and odds to conclude the best line there is actually raise/fold to a shove. But then again, that board was like Js8s7h, so super draw-heavy. This one of yours is rather dry and it wouldn't surprise me to see a weak player donking then 3bet-shoving there with AJ.

      The one reason for not raising flop, in my opinion, is that we have position and by raising we negate position (once he shoves and we call the hand is done, so position doesn't matter anymore). But apparently that reason is just not enough :D

      Originally posted by DrDunne
      in your experience, what do you make of overbet shoves like that? do they tend to be extremely strong hands or are they more often "please don't call me" spew-bluffs?
      Like most things in poker, it's very opponent-dependant. At these limits, if the overbet-shove comes on the river I'll just assume it's the nuts, plain and simple. I don't think people do it as a bluff. As you climb the limits, people will - sometimes often. But not at NL10, as I've seen probably not before NL50.

      However, when it comes on the turn (or even flop) it's trickier. It can be many things - but I doubt it's a semi bluff with a flush draw. On the other hand, I also doubt it's JJ since JJ wouldn't be afraid of a flush draw and would rather slowplay.

      So I'd say it's more likely three things: 1) a bad player with a 6 and scared A LOT of the flush draw; 2) a very very bad player with something like AJ/KJ hoping to get called by worse jack or flush draw; 3) an even worse player just shoving something like 99. I don't know the reasoning behind this last one but I guess it's something like "they don't have a 6, if they have only a J they'll fold, if they have a flush draw they might call but I'm still ahead".

      Surprisingly, I've seen #3 quite often; #1 a bit less often but still a bit; #2 only very rarely.

      Of course, the BB's play there is a bit surprising indeed. It wouldn't surprise me if he does have JJ. He can't have TP+FD, and a 6 is not very likely (though always possible). If he called with Jx he's a bit nuts.

      I hope you've made notes on both :tongue:
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Hello DrDunne,

      There is no way we can fold it here on flop. He may easily do that with weaker hands and maybe even weaker PPs than just J of pair. I'd definitely Call the flop and reevaluate it on the turn. :)

      Also the shove doesn't always mean that he has a strong hand but rather some dumb hand which is shipping and doesn't understand the game much. :D

      Best Regards.