[NL2-NL10] NL4; SH: A7o frm BB agnst loose BU

    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      IPoker, $0.02/$0.04 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

      UTG: $4.26 (106.5 bb)
      MP: $1.82 (45.5 bb)
      CO: $2.44 (61 bb)
      BTN: $4.38 (109.5 bb)
      SB: $0.96 (24 bb)
      Hero (BB): $4 (100 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is BB with A 7
      3 folds, BTN raises to $0.12, 2 folds

      Results: $0.10 pot
      BTN mucked and won $0.10 ($0.06 net)

      Our opponent has the following stats:
      VP/PFR/AF/3bt/StealfromBTN/hands 38/32/10.0/12.5/100/65

      Our opponent obviously is very loose and aggressive. He also likes to steal a lot. I don't have any information on how he reacts to 3bets, however.

      Since villain is so loose, we should defend our blinds more often. Is this not a good spot and hand? How do we play it?
  • 13 replies
    • luizsilveira
      luizsilveira
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.11.2010 Posts: 2,320
      Hi, Avatars91!

      A7o is a very bad hand to defend passively, especially against an aggressive player. There is simply no way you'll play that hand profitably out of position and you'll just lose a ton of money.

      If you want to defend activelly (by 3betting) I wouldn't recommend 3betting much as a bluff on NL4 - both because people will call way too much and because you can have such an edge on other spots that you don't need to risk 12 or more BB to save one.

      One more thing I'd be aware is at these lowest limits loose aggressive players are usually bad. To be a good LAG you need to have very good breaks and know when to pull out the aggression; but most aggressive players from lowest limits are just spewy. That means, even though he *should* fold a LOT to 3bets because his range is too weak, I'd bet he's actually prone to both 4bet and to call much more than he should

      That said, if you are to do it I'd chose suited aces sometimes, even very low ones (A2s-A5s) because of extra playability due to straight possibility. But considering your opponent is in position and will call often, I'd rather do it with suited connectors like 54s-T9s since they can flop better.

      A7o is way too bad in terms of playability and there is no flop you want to see except A77 :D
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      Can this not be a good hand to find out how he reacts to 3bets? We have a blocker and his opening range there is so wide.
    • luizsilveira
      luizsilveira
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.11.2010 Posts: 2,320
      Well, to be honest I don't like it. Yes we do have a blocker, and we even have some equity against his range, but that's about it. Our playability is 0. Will you hit top pair on a board like A :heart: 8 :spade: 2 :heart: and check/fold?

      It even depends a bit on how he reacts to 3bets. If he never calls but only 4bets and folds (meaning we will never see a flop anyway) this would be a perfect bluff hand.

      However, since he is loose, he is in position, and, well, it's NL4, he'll call you a lot. Then it's better to have "at least some" playability to win a big pot every once in a while in the postflop - thus making it more profitable. With A7o it will just never happen that you'll win a big pot.

      And then again, I don't understand the urge to defend with a bad hand. If he's playing so lose, he'll still be stealing in a couple of orbits when we do have a hand to defend - either for value or as a (semi) bluff.
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      I understand we don't have to defend at all costs. I just want to get in all the +EV spots possible and I thought this might be one of them. It's a fine fold, I admit.

      Would you say it is more sensible to assume that without knowing anything in addition to the stats we can evaluate his play according to a stereotype of a typical LAG on NL4, or would you say that it is sensible to first find out what his playing tendencies are by presenting him with decisions like in this hand and then keep playing against him with at least some information (e.g. he folds a lot to 3bets, or he doesn't).

      If it is so that he folds a lot, I would regard our A7o fold as a missed opportunity and therefore not the optimal play.

      How do you think?
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Hello Avatars91,

      If the opponent is very loose then rather don't 3bet, you just put yourself into marginal spots as wasting the money postflop with CBets while the opponent is capable floating very loose.

      Best Regards.
    • luizsilveira
      luizsilveira
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.11.2010 Posts: 2,320
      Originally posted by Avatars91
      I understand we don't have to defend at all costs. I just want to get in all the +EV spots possible and I thought this might be one of them. It's a fine fold, I admit.
      It could even be +EV, and I would even say it probably is. There are few things to consider though:

      - We don't know yet. It might as well be -EV
      - If it is +EV, it's very, very slightly. If we 3bet to 4x he has to fold more than 2/3 for our 3bet to be breakeven. Let's say he folds quite a bit, like 80% (I really doubt he will, especially him being in position). If you want, we can make together an exercise on Equilab to define his open range and calling range to see if that makes sense. Roughly, your EV is a bit more than 1BB. So we're risking 11BB to get 1 in EV - provided we don't make any mistakes with A7o postflop. Problem is, we probably will. If he folds only a more reasonable 60% our 3bet is already -EV, even if we make no mistakes postflop.
      - It's NL4. Why does that make a difference? Because you already have a big edge over many opponents, and hugely +EV spots appear often. If you are playing higher limits and you see a spot slightly +EV you better grab it, even if it might cost your stack, because that same spot might not come again. But on micro limits huge +EV spots are appearing all the time, so you can just sit back a bit more, relax and wait for them.


      Originally posted by Avatars91
      Would you say it is more sensible to assume that without knowing anything in addition to the stats we can evaluate his play according to a stereotype of a typical LAG on NL4, or would you say that it is sensible to first find out what his playing tendencies are by presenting him with decisions like in this hand and then keep playing against him with at least some information (e.g. he folds a lot to 3bets, or he doesn't).

      If it is so that he folds a lot, I would regard our A7o fold as a missed opportunity and therefore not the optimal play.

      How do you think?
      With that kind of sample I wouldn't even be sure he is a LAG. Sometimes I play different tables at the same time and at the beginning of the session I'm playing 45/35 in one table and 8/6 in another. It might be that I just had a card rush, and/or opponents were different, etc.

      But yes, it's usually correct to make some rough assumptions on what people usually do. So if you have 0 hands on someone, you can make some (very very rough) assumptions by what players on that limit and on that site usually do. Once you know he is, for example, a recreational player, you can make some rough assumptions on what recreational players of NL4 on that site do (call too much from blinds, only check/raise turn with the nuts, etc). But beware a lot: rough assumptions seldom should guide you to marginal and expensive decisions.

      My reasoning there is this:

      - people in general call 3bets way too much in NL4.
      - this guy seems more loose than the average NL4 player
      - looser players call more 3bets than tighter players
      - thus, I can assume this guy will call even more 3bets.

      But yes, the best way to find out if that's true is... to 3bet him :D I would just do it with a hand that gives me more +EV spots postflop while preventing me from making expensive mistakes. On top of that, I'd probably try as much as I could to 3bet in position rather than out of position.

      But then again... at these limits... at don't really think it's necessary. When you get AA or KK or QQ he will most likely not know when to pull the breaks and will stack off pretty light.
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      Thanks to the substantial input! I fully agree with you.

      I don't however like the attitude of sitting back and relax because the game already is soft :) I want to push my performance to the highest level, which includes knowing how to deal with marginal spots to get the every single +EV spot I can, as it does matter to me regardless of the limit I'm at. How will I otherwise improve?

      So how do we find out if our opponent is the kind of player who we can 3bet here in this spot? Or to be more precise - how do we find it out as soon as possible as long as he is still at our table?
    • luizsilveira
      luizsilveira
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.11.2010 Posts: 2,320
      Originally posted by Avatars91
      [...] I want to push my performance to the highest level, which includes knowing how to deal with marginal spots to get the every single +EV spot I can[...]
      That is an interesting quote.

      I may be fully out of line here but I'll try to state my personal opinion: you shouldn't.

      Like said, if you want to get every single +EV spot might mean you should risk 100BB to get 0,5BB EV. What does that mean? HUGE variance to start with.

      And what does huge variance mean for your game? It can lead to two things:

      1) tilt or godmode. If you run bad, you start to tilt (if you try to push every single +EV spot it wouldn't surprise me you end up losing 15 stacks even if you play optimally). After losing 2, 3, 4 stacks in a row you won't play optimally anymore, you'll start to tilt whether you want it or not. Likely, this will lead to a vicious cycle that will ruin your game and destroy your roll. On the other hand, if you do run good you might win 10 stacks in a row (even if, in terms of EV, you only deserve 5BB remember?). This means you'll think poker is too easy, you're the next Phil Ivey, you'll be rolled and you'll go up one limit or two. And then you'll get crushed because that was a lot more run good than anything else; eventually the runbad will also come, you'll get on tilt (now on a higher limit), loose a lot of your bankroll, and end up having to move back down wondering what the hell happened since you're the next Phil Ivey and the field is so fishy (after all, how the hell that guy could call your shove with 3rd pair in a 3bet pot?).

      Ok, leaving my taste for writing a lot aside, my advice is to learn bit by bit instead of "chewing it all".

      Let's consider there are spots hugely +EV, a bit +EV, and slighly +EV. Learn the first ones first. Master them. Make them your instincts. Once you've done it, go to the second ones, still big, but a bit thinner. More variance, more probable mistakes, but still good income and bankroll building. Leave the thin spots for last, once your game is really, really good. Then you can work to squeeze that last 0,5BB/100 hands.

      That will allow you to build both your game and your bankroll steady and nicely.

      (which doesn't mean not being curious or asking about it, studying, etc. I think this attitude is great and will pay off. However, trying to apply all at once at the tables to try gaining 0,5BB every now and then will cost you a whole lot more in expensive mistakes than it will revenue your game or your bankroll).
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      That might be the best advice on how to improve at this game I've gotten so far. I owe you a lot, Luizsilveira.

      One question though - how do I determine the difference between a marginal spot and a hugely +EV on my own? How to know when to beware of a potential big mistake that might be only slightly +EV at best? You know, how to know when to be careful?
    • luizsilveira
      luizsilveira
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.11.2010 Posts: 2,320
      Originally posted by Avatars91
      That might be the best advice on how to improve at this game I've gotten so far. I owe you a lot, Luizsilveira.

      One question though - how do I determine the difference between a marginal spot and a hugely +EV on my own? How to know when to beware of a potential big mistake that might be only slightly +EV at best? You know, how to know when to be careful?
      Thank you for the feedback, I'm glad if I could help. I just hope the advice is good... like I said, it's just a personal opinion :f_biggrin:

      On your question, well, often it will be obvious :D

      If you are risking too much to maybe win a little bit, it's an obvious spot.

      I think it would take too big a post with too many examples to try to explain it, so not even my writing fever could cope with it :P

      Best thing is: if you have any doubt about a particular spot, including the question whether it has a ton of value or just a bit with lots of variance, just post the hand and ask us ;)
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      Once again thanks a lot!

      Not a single word from you seemed redundant.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      You pressed the ! button. :D What's the question?
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      Wow, sorry :D must have done that accidentally.