[NL2-NL10] NL4; SH: AQo cold call agnst shortstack

    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      IPoker, $0.02/$0.04 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

      SB: $1.48 (37 bb)
      BB: $4.82 (120.5 bb)
      UTG: $5 (125 bb)
      MP: $1.40 (35 bb)
      CO: $6.15 (153.8 bb)
      Hero (BTN): $4.06 (101.5 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is BTN with A Q
      UTG folds, MP raises to $0.16, CO folds, Hero calls $0.16, SB calls $0.14, BB folds

      Flop: ($0.52) 2 4 7 (3 players)
      SB checks, MP bets $0.52, 2 folds

      Results: $0.52 pot ($0.03 rake)
      Final Board: 2 4 7
      SB mucked and lost (-$0.16 net)
      MP mucked and won $0.49 ($0.33 net)
      Hero mucked A Q and lost (-$0.16 net)

      The initial raiser is a multitabler and has the following stats:
      VP/PFR/AF/hands 25/24/3.0/96

      The SB has the following stats: VP/PFR/AF/3bet/hands 16/14/2.0/0.0/38
      The BB is a rock

      I honestly don't know how to play here preflop. A 3bet commits us against any push and a push is mostly a better hand. Thus I called hoping for a hit.
  • 18 replies
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Hello Avatars91,

      Against such a shorty I'd either just 3bet it or just fold the hand. With flatting and calling people behind us along we wont play the hand profitable.

      Best Regards.
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      1) If we 3bet, we are committed, right?
      2) If we are committed, wouldn't you prefer folding over 3betting since a 3bet isolates us against a rather strong range I would say.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      1) If we 3bet, we are committed, right?

      Against MP stack yep. :)

      2) If we are committed, wouldn't you prefer folding over 3betting since a 3bet isolates us against a rather strong range I would say.

      I wouldn't say that. Try to put his PFR and then your hand to find it out.
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      I agree that he is opening with a range that I am ahead of, but am I ahead once he pushes? When he does we are committed and we are dominated almost always.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by Avatars91
      I agree that he is opening with a range that I am ahead of, but am I ahead once he pushes? When he does we are committed and we are dominated almost always.
      That kind of opponent very likely will. Some may even ship almost with his whole range there. Those kind of stacks are rather bad players.
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      That kind of opponent very likely will. Some may even ship almost with his whole range there. Those kind of stacks are rather bad players.


      I of course believe there are such bad shortstacks, but don't you think we shouldn't be stereotyping them just because of their stacksize? I think the safest line would be to first gain information about him and see if he is that kind of a player. If he is not and we are wrong once we 3bet I think it is a hugely -EV situation.

      All of that, of course, doesn't apply, if you can truly state that the majority of such stack players are so bad that a 3bet/call against them with AQ when they are raising from MP is profitable. Is that the case?
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      You wont play the hand very profitable either by calling and then inviting other opponents to join in and then maybe even play for stacks with TP vs even full stack. :) That's the point.
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      1) No no, I understand now that calling against shortstacks is not good :) I just have come to the conclusion that I'd rather fold this hand than 3bet it without any information in this spot. Just want to know if you agree with that.

      2) We could also try to 3bet him smaller every once in a while with some hands to see how he reacts to small 3bets. Then, depending on our conclusions from his play we might 3bet our AQ here small as well. How would you like such an approach against such opponents?
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Against a shorty who kind of opens so many hands I am Raise/Shipping here or rather just folding it. You wont play profitable by just Calling and hoping to hit. ;) And neither I don't really see why we should Raise/Fold.
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      And neither I don't really see why we should Raise/Fold.


      He might have a calling range against a smaller 3bet, no?
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by Avatars91
      And neither I don't really see why we should Raise/Fold.


      He might have a calling range against a smaller 3bet, no?
      We don't want him to Call against us. We want to play for the stack right away if we 3bet. :P
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      We don't want him to Call against us. We want to play for the stack right away if we 3bet.


      Why would we not want him to call us with worse? His stack is not THAT short that postflop play is not possible. By 3betting bigger against him we are often isolating ourselves against a stronger range because he folds weaker hands. That is unless, of course, we know that he is bad - if that is the case I obviously fully agree with you that 3bet/call is profitable. But in this case we hardly know anything about out opponent. We could 3bet smaller and because the price will be relatively good for him he might call with many worse hands despite his bad reverse implied odds.

      It's just that I hate to be a nit against shortstacks. I feel like as if I am being exploited. And I don't agree that it's good to 3bet AQ against an unknown shortstack there with a regular raise size and go broke when he moves AI. It seems overplayed.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      If you don't like my evaluations then you are free to not use them. I am not going to argue with you here, especially when you even don't bring any good arguments out. If you want still to follow me evaluation read the 1st evaluation.
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      I absolutely love your evaluations. It just seems that you don't quite seem to like discussions. I don't want to simply get an answer for each situation like "this was good", "do this and that instead" - that way I don't exactly learn how to deal with situations on my own. I want to get deeper into the situation to fully understand it. I don't want to keep asking about the same hands and situations for the rest of my life. I want to grow, you know.

      And I'm really sorry that you fail to see logic in that which I call my argumentation since:

      Why would we not want him to call us with worse? His stack is not THAT short that postflop play is not possible


      3betting bigger against him we are often isolating ourselves against a stronger range because he folds weaker hands. That is unless, of course, we know that he is bad - if that is the case I obviously fully agree with you that 3bet/call is profitable.


      We could 3bet smaller and because the price will be relatively good for him he might call with many worse hands despite his bad reverse implied odds.


      etc. seems very much like argumentation to me.

      The problem in this hand that I am concerned about could probably be resolved with me asking one simple question - is it better to stereotype players on these limits and play according to general assumptions about players who have the same stack sizes, stats aso., or is it better to pay attention to each individual player and how he is playing?

      The reason I don't like stereotyping - it is general and our constructed module on how a certain category players behave might be wrong, and if that is the case, I think we are often making very very big mistakes on a constant basis. Right now I am simply asking you the question - how long was it since you played NL4? Have you played on WilliamHill? E.g. how fresh is your stereotype module on shortstacks on this limit and does it apply on average on all poker platforms? I believe that poker is ever-changing and that which might have been a correct assumption even a year ago might not be the case anymore today.

      The reason I don't like paying attention to each particular opponent without a stereotype module according to which to make decisions without any additional information - it takes a lot of time to get to know an opponent and if we can safely create an assumption about a certain category of poker players, we can play profitable poker on average against such opponents and not miss out on opportunities because we don't have information, which is usually the case. We can also add notes and deviate from the stereotype module against certain players as we go, which would be better than simply sticking stubbornly to a particular evaluation of a certain category of players such as shortstacks in this example.

      So can you reassure me that today, on 24 December 2011 on WilliamHill shortstacks on average are extremely bad opponents that go broke with such a range that 3betting them with AQo and calling their pushes is going to be profitable? If that is true, I rest my case and there is no need for further discussion. It's that easy.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Why would we not want him to call us with worse? His stack is not THAT short that postflop play is not possible

      Well, please once again re-read the evaluation of mine, the very 1st post.

      I absolutely love your evaluations. It just seems that you don't quite seem to like discussions. I don't want to simply get an answer for each situation like "this was good", "do this and that instead"

      Please once again re-read the evaluation. a) he is short; b) we are multiway and AQo ain't strong multiway as I have said you couple of times already. Didn't write that long post, did I to read it through? :D

      I want to grow, you know.

      It's fine for me if you ask but try to find yourself your game and not let everyone do it for you. In poker you are mainly alone on the tables and there is no veriz around or anyone else. :D That's also why I have been asking questions from you.

      3betting bigger against him we are often isolating ourselves against a stronger range because he folds weaker hands. That is unless, of course, we know that he is bad - if that is the case I obviously fully agree with you that 3bet/call is profitable.

      Why should we isolate against stronger hands? Please tell me how much do you know the opponent and then come back to this spot. (TIP STACK SIZE)

      We could 3bet smaller and because the price will be relatively good for him he might call with many worse hands despite his bad reverse implied odds.

      Doesn't make sense at all. For such a player doesn't matter what kind of raise size it is. He is calling or just going broke no-matter what with practically the same range which raised.

      is it better to stereotype players on these limits and play according to general assumptions about players who have the same stack sizes, stats aso., or is it better to pay attention to each individual player and how he is playing?

      Why shouldn't you? Isn't that poker about? To pay attention on the tables, opponents? :)

      Right now I am simply asking you the question - how long was it since you played NL4? Have you played on WilliamHill?

      NL4? Well, few weeks back for Beginners Course Coaching. And I doubt the sites are so different from each other. :)

      The reason I don't like paying attention to each particular opponent without a stereotype module according to which to make decisions without any additional information - it takes a lot of time to get to know an opponent and if we can safely create an assumption about a certain category of poker players

      Why should it take a lot of time? If you play enough of hands and especially playing on iPoker network which isn't the biggest network you will face over and over again some regulars. It's just rather matter of time when you will be able to adjust to the opponents and understand it.

      So can you reassure me that today, on 24 December 2011 on WilliamHill shortstacks on average are extremely bad opponents that go broke with such a range that 3betting them with AQo and calling their pushes is going to be profitable? If that is true, I rest my case and there is no need for further discussion. It's that easy.

      Try to understand that there is never a default answer for those kind of questions in poker! Never-Ever! Everything is based on situations, in one spot you may go broke, in one spot you may not. Usually those shorties are bad, especially on those limits. I never even seen on my limits which is up to NL200, sometimes NL400 there ain't even very good mid-stack regs. Why should it be then on NL4? :f_biggrin:
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      Why would we not want him to call us with worse? His stack is not THAT short that postflop play is not possible Well, please once again re-read the evaluation of mine, the very 1st post.


      You wont play the hand very profitable either by calling and then inviting other opponents to join in and then maybe even play for stacks with TP vs even full stack. That's the point.


      The 1st evaluation does not include the answer to the question of why we shouldn't be happy that we are getting called by worse.

      Please once again re-read the evaluation. a) he is short; b) we are multiway and AQo ain't strong multiway as I have said you couple of times already. Didn't write that long post, did I to read it through?


      I am not arguing about calling preflop. You have explained to me already that it is bad. I just am not sure about 3betting and then calling a push as opposed to directly folding the hand.

      Why should we isolate against stronger hands? Please tell me how much do you know the opponent and then come back to this spot. (TIP STACK SIZE)


      That's my whole point - I know nothing about him. Going broke with AQo against an unknown with such a stack size seems a very borderline case, a close spot, you know.

      is it better to stereotype players on these limits and play according to general assumptions about players who have the same stack sizes, stats aso., or is it better to pay attention to each individual player and how he is playing?


      Why shouldn't you? Isn't that poker about? To pay attention on the tables, opponents?


      I am discussing 2 approaches to playing poker right not - stereotyping a certain category of players (shortstacks in this example), thus assigning approximate ranges to the players under this category and playing according to these assumptions until proven otherwise, OR playing cautiously and deviating from the cautious approach once any piece of information about a particular player has been gained. E.i. don't go broke too light against a shortstack just because he is a shortstack and might go broke with worse than AQo, but do go broke with a hand like AQo once you see that he goes broke with say ATs+ AJo+ 99+ against someone. Which method is better is the question.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      And once again, please re-read 1st evaluation. :)
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      Ok, nevermind. Thanks!