[NL2-NL10] NL4; SH: 87o freeplay agnst fish

    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      IPoker, $0.02/$0.04 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 5 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

      Hero (BB): $8.33 (208.3 bb)
      MP: $1.45 (36.3 bb)
      CO: $4.95 (123.8 bb)
      BTN: $5.86 (146.5 bb)
      SB: $4 (100 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is BB with 8 7
      MP calls $0.04, 3 folds, Hero checks

      Flop: ($0.10) 6 T 7 (2 players)
      Hero checks, MP bets $0.07, Hero folds

      Results: $0.10 pot
      Final Board: 6 T 7
      Hero mucked 8 7 and lost (-$0.04 net)
      MP mucked and won $0.10 ($0.06 net)

      Our opponent has the following stats:
      VP/PFR/AF/WTSD/hands 53/9/2.2/23/80

      1) Could I bet the flop for value+protection?
      2) If I bet the flop, what do I do on the turn?
  • 16 replies
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Hello Avatars91,

      Bet the flop yourself as I have said earlier with your midpair and draw even. :)

      Depends what turn card comes? :) Can't write you all combinations what to do. :D Usually on blank we could consider even 2nd barreling with still midpair+GS.

      Best Regards.
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      Do we bet midpairs 2handed in freeplays as well?
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by Avatars91
      Do we bet midpairs 2handed in freeplays as well?
      Yeah, sure why not? Against limping range we are most likely ahead.
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      1) Even if the board is very wet?
      2) Would we have bet this hand 3handed?
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      1) Even if the board is very wet?

      Yes, even on a wet board as this. :) Why do you think it hits more his range than ours?

      2) Would we have bet this hand 3handed?

      In 3handed we could argue more about betting ourselves. But either we are betting it or just Check/Folding.
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      Yes, even on a wet board as this. Why do you think it hits more his range than ours?


      I don't think this board hits him better than me, it's just that there are many hands that would call my bet and there are also many cards that I don't want to see on the turn. If a bad card comes and there are so many of them, regardless of what I think about how well the board has hit him we have to play c/f.

      The hand is difficult to play if we get called, and I believe we often do.
      I don't disagree with you, I just point out some issues and potential problems with this hand.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Well, even if he calls then it's very likely that we are still ahead. :) And we might even gain value from worse or draws.
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      Well, even if he calls then it's very likely that we are still ahead. And we might even gain value from worse or draws.


      It's likely, but we won't know. If the turn card completes the flush, pairs the board without giving us trips and is an overcard that does not give us the straight, I doubt we could continue with betting. Often we check and our opponent sensing weakness bets and we fold. If he doesn't bet, he checks behind and most often we can't bet on the river either, hence why we once again check, which in my opinion would often be met with a bet to make us fold.

      The hand just seems difficult to me. I think that we shouldn't be betting here on the flop against any opponent. Against loose passive calling stations definitely, but not against most unknowns IMO.

      Don't any of my points make sense?
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      You are too much scared in many spots only what I can read from your text. :) What you shouldn't be. If it completes, so what? Doesn't mean that we always have to continue, it's just a freeplay pot, we can easily Check/Fold. But going directly for Check/Fold on the flop while it's very likely that against his range we are even ahead is somewhat too tight. :)
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      I might be scared, true. I just think that this sort of board often hits him one way or the other, and when it does, we basically have a very difficult time continuing profitable OOP.

      My insecurity might be a symptom of not having a clear understanding on how often he can hit a board like this. Can you reassure me that I have decent FE here and, comparing to the times I do get called and have to give up, as well as the times I get called and can continue playing, on average my play will be profitable? If your answer is yes, then I put my faith in your assessment and adjust my play.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by Avatars91
      I might be scared, true. I just think that this sort of board often hits him one way or the other, and when it does, we basically have a very difficult time continuing profitable OOP.

      My insecurity might be a symptom of not having a clear understanding on how often he can hit a board like this. Can you reassure me that I have decent FE here and, comparing to the times I do get called and have to give up, as well as the times I get called and can continue playing, on average my play will be profitable? If your answer is yes, then I put my faith in your assessment and adjust my play.
      What fold equity? You mean to make better hands to fold? :D
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      What fold equity? You mean to make better hands to fold?


      By FE here I mean not making better hands fold, but making my opponent fold such hands that have relatively decent equity or that he want's to float or bluff with, hands that are weak draws and which quite likely are going to either be completed or be bluffed with as I often have to c/f the turn.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by Avatars91
      What fold equity? You mean to make better hands to fold?


      By FE here I mean not making better hands fold, but making my opponent fold such hands that have relatively decent equity or that he want's to float or bluff with, hands that are weak draws and which quite likely are going to either be completed or be bluffed with as I often have to c/f the turn.
      Why should he float in freeplay pots or bluffs against us? :D
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      Why should he float in freeplay pots or bluffs against us?


      Our opponent probably shouldn't do that, but regardless of that he might every once in a while or in some cases even very often, don't you think?

      E.g. our opponent calls with a GS, we check because the turncard is not good for us. I believe that once we play the bet flop check turn line our opponent will bet very very often on the turn.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Well, it seems you start to argue and find a reason not to Bet the flop or not act like I advice on almost every single hand. :)

      Our opponent probably shouldn't do that, but regardless of that he might every once in a while or in some cases even very often, don't you think?

      But more often he wouldn't. :) Which happens more and based on that what do you think which is more profitable in math?

      E.g. our opponent calls with a GS, we check because the turncard is not good for us. I believe that once we play the bet flop check turn line our opponent will bet very very often on the turn.

      Well, we reevaluate the turn... man don't try to find arguments that your play is profitable. :D It seems like you are doing it on every single hand already. I can assure that such a play is profitable and in long run you gonna loose a lot value with your play. If you want to play so passive then go for it.
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      Ok, I'll try to stick to your advice and see how I do. Thanks!