Datamining

    • MatejM47
      MatejM47
      Black
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,193
      Hey guy's, i'd really like your view on the whole dataming thing and PTR. Recently i was talking to a friend of mine and the topic came up and he was actually surprised that i am not datamining. I didn't know what to make of it since i know its against TOS of most sites.

      We've got into a debate and he told that him and a bunch of others have a shared folder online in which they buy hands on Party and Stars from nl25 to nl1k that they get daily from PTR. Basically they have every hand played on party&stars the next morning.

      At this point they have about 70ppl sharing those hands and its costing them 10$ a month to have all the hands from all limits avaliable. Im not going into how big of an advantage you can gain having 20k hands on a reg you never played a hand with but its probably more then 10$ in EV at the end of the month.

      Basically untill now i was unaware how many people are actually datamining. Basically i want to know your thoughts at this topic.

      Arguments for dataming:
      You get an obvious advantage, especially on stars low to midstakes where the player pool is huge and its tough to get a big samples even on the regs.

      Since other regs are doing it your at an unfair disadvantage against them.

      I find it extremely unfair against the fish who are unaware of this. If a fish you never played with sits with you and you already datamined 1 or 2k hands on him this is a ton of information you don't have to spend time and money trying to find out such as preflop stats, agression, wtsd folding frequencys.

      You basically cant get cought?

      Arguments against datamining.
      If you ever bothered to read Stars TOS (or any other site for that mater) I guess somewhere in there you will find that they do not allow datamining on their site. But then why would you care since they obviously don't. Its not like Stars doesnt know PTR exists and they dont seem to do anything about it.

      Its imo morally wrong to do it against the fish who are now at even bigger disatvantage that they're unaware of.


      PTR advertises they had 14k costumer last year. Considering most share HH and there are some other sites that datamine as well the number is likely way higher. And they make good money so i guess at least some % of player do indeed use those sites.

      Im just wondering what you guys think on this subject. Personally i think that datamining is definitly bad for the games since your unaware of who does it and who dont. You might play the first hand against a guy that just sat down but he actually has 50k hands on you and the whole hud makes poker feel more automated but i guess its just the way it is. They will never ban huds anyway since it allows you to play more tables which means more rake for them.

      This post ended up being way longer then planned.
  • 10 replies
    • roopopper
      roopopper
      Bronze
      Joined: 31.12.2010 Posts: 4,289
      I think its really bad for poker, most people outside of poker are not aware of data-mining, but I feel as more people hear about this type of edge that some online players use, it will kill the game even more than it already is.

      I have spent the last year playing poker at the micros, which I have enjoyed and the thought of all the hard work I have put in to try to get a few levels higher and maybe make a few dollars is what keeps me going.

      The more I hear about stuff like Data mining the more it makes me think, its just not worth it !! I'm sure as this practice gets more widespread then many newcomers to the game will feel the same way too.

      If people start to feel they are being cheated out of their money they will stop playing. Then all that will be left are the guys with data mined stats playing each other.

      Data-mining is another nail in the coffin for poker :(

      Its such a shame because 20 or so years ago poker had a really bad reputation and then due to tv broadcasting and the wonders of the internet it managed to get some respectability, but last year it has begun to show a dark side :(

      Only my opinion of course :)

      Roo
    • z1pz0r
      z1pz0r
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.08.2009 Posts: 981
      Nice post.

      I never did it when I played on Stars, mostly because it seemed morally wrong to me. It's also the main reason why I left Stars, it sucks when you feel that someone has reads on you.

      Also, I have asked their support about PTR, they said it was an "ongoing battle. Pokerstars will keep trying to prevent datamining but PTR will probably find new ways".
      Also, you only get a warning the first time they catch you datamining (don't know how they catch you though).
    • RDKNAUF91
      RDKNAUF91
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.07.2010 Posts: 219
      It's definitely bad for poker in general.And those who don't do that are in big disadvantage ,also me :(

      So I think we need to start a section on Pokerstrategy where we could change with HH's :s_biggrin:

      That would be great for All Pokerstrategy members :s_cool:
    • ragney
      ragney
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.08.2010 Posts: 2,417

      I find it extremely unfair against the fish who are unaware of this. If a fish you never played with sits with you and you already datamined 1 or 2k hands on him this is a ton of information you don't have to spend time and money trying to find out such as preflop stats, agression, wtsd folding frequencys.
      Lol who cares about the fish being at a disadvantage position. They don't even have hud to start with. Sorry if I ofended any fish here but hud = online poker.

      As for the datamine, I once read a topic about it and the conclusion was simple: "Can't beat them? Join them."

      I mean every one of us hate others have alot of datas/stats about us, we can't do anything about it, thats the biggest problem. You can say all you want but untill they find a way to forbid this, more and more people will be using it. Hence the conclusion can't beat them? join them. (somewhere on 2+2 forums few months ago)
    • Heave112
      Heave112
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.03.2009 Posts: 456
      u can datamine on 888 poker without threats
    • gadget51
      gadget51
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.06.2008 Posts: 5,622
      My personal opinions are;
      1. If I think someone has reads on me I should be good enough to adjust, if not make an effort to do so.

      2. If I think by having 2k hands I will have an advantage over another player then tyvm for that.

      3. 20k hands may be at the wrong end of the regs history and they have started changing their game by now, so wasted of money buying them and spewy at tables v said reg as well.

      4. It seems that more and more tables are becoming 'Anonomous' making stat collection tough.

      5. I anticipate sites getting more strict in their TOC, as they seem to be with a lot of things involving grinders/regs.

      6. On some sites I know you can change your screen name, making a further barrier to datamning.


      7. notes>stats all day


      Just my 2 cents worth and not to be confused with somebody who actually knows a lot of what they're talking about.


      Regards all,

      Mal.
    • Heave112
      Heave112
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.03.2009 Posts: 456
      OFc Notes>HUD, but you cant take that many notes when ur 8+ Tabling.
    • ragney
      ragney
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.08.2010 Posts: 2,417
      Originally posted by Heave112
      OFc Notes>HUD, but you cant take that many notes when ur 8+ Tabling.
      Than don't 8+ table? Ez.
    • ExternalUseOnly
      ExternalUseOnly
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.01.2010 Posts: 3,373
      Originally posted by ragney
      Originally posted by Heave112
      OFc Notes>HUD, but you cant take that many notes when ur 8+ Tabling.
      Than don't 8+ table? Ez.
      :f_love: Ive just halved my number of tables to 4 because i could only take super basic notes whilst playing, took a while to get used to the slower pace but im enjoying the game much more again because i feel like im improving again.

      As for datamining i dont like it and i dont plan on doing it but ofc im under no illusion that it does happen
    • MatejM47
      MatejM47
      Black
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,193
      Originally posted by gadget51
      My personal opinions are;
      1. If I think someone has reads on me I should be good enough to adjust, if not make an effort to do so.

      2. If I think by having 2k hands I will have an advantage over another player then tyvm for that.

      3. 20k hands may be at the wrong end of the regs history and they have started changing their game by now, so wasted of money buying them and spewy at tables v said reg as well.

      4. It seems that more and more tables are becoming 'Anonomous' making stat collection tough.

      5. I anticipate sites getting more strict in their TOC, as they seem to be with a lot of things involving grinders/regs.

      6. On some sites I know you can change your screen name, making a further barrier to datamning.


      7. notes>stats all day


      Just my 2 cents worth and not to be confused with somebody who actually knows a lot of what they're talking about.


      Regards all,

      Mal.
      1. Thats the problem, you don't know if he has any stats on you. He might have 0 or 20k hands you simply can't know. And datamining has nothing to do with you being phil galfond or the biggest fish on the planet, it still gives you at least some advantage.

      2. If your a reg then you play 10k hands a week or 40k hands a month at least. Thats a decent sample size. And if your a reg thats giving me trouble i can do HM analisis on you with that kind of sample size. To get 40k hands on you i would have to play a few month with you, now i can just buy the hands.

      3. Like i sad, for 10$ a month you can get hands daily from PTR. Thats like losing a smallish pot. If you think hands are to old then just purge your database every month. And its not like people change their playstyle every 10k hands.

      4. That indeed stops datamining. I however haven't encountered anonymous tables yet, at least on the sites i play. And even so thats more used for HU play in which case i think its really great to get some action. Not really that aplicable in 6 and 9 max since its just so confusing.

      5. Personally i can't predict the future but at the momemnt they really dont seem to care. If they do shut down PTR in the future that would be great but it really doesnt seem to be happening.

      6. Yeah i play on Party where and i can change my name once a month, great for players to always have fresh hands on me and it filters out the old ones.

      7. Can't really argue that one. Reads are obviously way more valueable then stats. But still having at least 500 hands on a fish that you never seen before that just joined your talbe can be extremely powerful. By his stats you can get at least general playstyle and the way he thinks which is definitly better then nothing.