5 CD: When to open-raise draws (and when not to)

    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 8,904
      I'm playing FL .10/.20

      I recently started experimentally open raising 4-flushes from CO & BU, whereas previously only from SB.
      I started this because when open-raising two pair and drawing 1 I was getting folds to the cBet often enough to make me think it worthwhile to try. So far, I like the result -- in other words, the number of times I hit, plus the number of folds I get has improved my win rate somewhat.

      How far can I take this?
      Is this profitable to do with OESDs too?
      How far back? CO? MP?

      Bear in mind that when I do this, I have to invest 4BB every time -- the open raise and the cBet (hit or miss).

      Are there any articles on this?
      Is this going to still be profitable when I move up to the next limit later this year?

      Oh -- one last thing: If I open-raise a flush draw from BU, and get 3-Bet, does one call or fold? What criteria does one use to decide?

      Thanks,
  • 8 replies
    • jbpatzer
      jbpatzer
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2009 Posts: 6,944
      When I was playing I used to raise A high flush draws only. No OESDs. I used to raise more, but I got better results using just A high flush draws. You don't want to be always discarding one with two pair+ or you are too easy to read, but you don't want to overdo it. I wouldn't always cbet. If one of the blinds 3bets, or even just calls, and discards 1, I wouldn't cbet. They prob have two pair and aren't folding, or a busted draw, against which A high is often good. The great thing about doing this is that when your raise with two pair and get called from the blinds and they discard three, you can think about value betting your two pair if they know you could be bluffing with a flush draw. That's balancing for you! :s_cool:
    • bigpooch
      bigpooch
      Basic
      Joined: 16.01.2012 Posts: 44
      A big factor is how stubborn the blinds are: e.g., if the BB will defend with a lot of one pair hands, you don't want to semibluff very often; on the other hand, if the table is tight, you can even semibluff from UTG with just about any drawing hand that has an ace in it, even something as bad as A9876 from any spot at a tight table is worth an attempt to steal. Usually at low limits, the tables aren't so tight, so you really should normally stick with 12- or 15-out draws or any flush draw with an ace ( even if the ace is going to be discarded ).

      On the BTN, you should attempt to open with more draws especially if you have many cards in the 8 to A range ( because normally the BB should defend with a pair of eights at least some of the time; otherwise, the BTN can open raise somewhat exploitively ), so a hand like KJT98 is worth opening from the BTN except if the blinds are defending with weaker pairs or are very aggressive ( will 3-bet with KK+ and sometimes QQ ).

      The bad thing about OESDs is that you can get into a lot of trouble in 3-bet pots and you only have 8 outs whereas flush draws can be better hands and that one extra out means more pot equity. Still, it would be a bit too nitty to not open raise with AQJT9 from the cutoff if the blinds aren't that tenacious/aggressive.

      If you get 3-bet with a flush draw, you almost never fold - the only exception might be against a player that never 3-bets with less than high trips, but that's extremely rare except at microstakes. Straight draws are usually worth calling an extra small bet too, but if you had attempted to steal with something like a gutshot AKQJx and get 3-bet, normally fold.

      Normally, if you bust out when HU versus a 3-card draw ( or even against both blinds that each draw three ), you bluff. If you bust out when the BB draws one, you really don't need to bluff if the BB is likely on a draw ( say you are the cutoff or button and the BB would have likely 3-bet with any two pairs or better ) since an ace-high or even KQ-high has significant showdown value. Now, things can get a bit tricky if you had something like a Q-high flush draw and an ace discard: if the BB draws one, do you draw three to AQ ( since it's likely you're ahead ) ? It makes sense that if you had a pair and a flush draw or a K-high flush draw and an ace discard to just draw three to AK+ since it's highly likely you started best predraw, but what if you had a 15-out draw? I wouldn't blame you if you broke off a pair of nines with QJT9 suited since there is a tiny chance both you and your opponent can make a hand and if you get especially lucky, you could win 4 or more bets ( more only applies on sites where action is unlimited in HU pots ).

      The main idea is what you mentioned earlier: if players are folding to your c-bet postdraw when they draw three and you draw one, definitely expand your semibluffing range until they get curious and look you up with something like KK or worse. Even if you semibluff somewhat conservatively with 12-out/15-out draws and hands with an ace and AKQJx, it's probably not enough at most tables where the blinds are not extremely stubborn.
    • Huricano
      Huricano
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      Joined: 29.08.2010 Posts: 2,228
      Bigpooch on PokerStrategy! Yuuuuuupppppiiiiiiiii!!!
      Now that's second forum to spam you! :D

      Once upon a time when I was wondering how to play against people that open raise draws I found sth like this:

      Let's say BU open raise/ BB call
      BB discard 3
      BU discard 1
      BB check, BU bets.

      Now (excluding rake) BB has odds 1:3,25 to call, so if BU wants to be unexploitable he should have 1/(1+3,25)*100%=23,5% bluffs here and 76,5% value, yes?

      Since he is value betting (discard 1) quads/trips/two pairs and completed draws which is 179k + 0,2x and bluff with 0,8x (x - combo of draws) we can find "perfect" x which AFAIR is around 75k. That leads me to conclusion that if BU is open raising more than 75k draws (e.g. any flushdraw) we should auto check/call him. Is this making any sense? If so how this can be applied to open raising draws from BU? Against PERFECT blinds this number should be higher or lower?
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 8,904
      Originally posted by HuricanoOnce upon a time when I was wondering how to play against people that open raise draws I found sth like this:

      Let's say BU open raise/ BB call
      BB discard 3
      BU discard 1
      BB check, BU bets.

      Now (excluding rake) BB has odds 1:3,25 to call, so if BU wants to be unexploitable he should have 1/(1+3,25)*100%=23,5% bluffs here and 76,5% value, yes?
      Thanks, Huricano,
      It was actually your reply to my question "Did I get too eager" that got me started on this.
      In that post you said,
      Other extremum is when opp is TAG/nit and don't play flushdraw vs HU raise on BB (mostly is a mistake unless u have decent chance to win by pairing up on high cards). In this situation 3bet will be a mistake.

      From that I concluded that it would be OK to mix in some flush draws. I have tried a few (very few) times to open-raise flush draws from UTG & MP, but most I just fold from there.

      Adding the flush draws to my range has (so far) been very good for me.
      Also, I've been attempting steals w/ air against some players, also with good results.
    • bigpooch
      bigpooch
      Basic
      Joined: 16.01.2012 Posts: 44
      BTN drawing one versus BB drawing three in pots of 2.25 big bets:


      It's a bit tricky to work out exactly what the combinations are and BB's payoff hands ought to be because:

      1) the BTN probably doesn't want to raise with a weak flush draw with a low discard, but will with any decent draw with an ace, AKQJx, and hands like AJT98; i.e., there will be some "mix" of draws, but it will be mostly flush draws;

      2) if the BTN pairs on aces on some sort of draw, he usually should value bet ( to give him a wider semibluffing range ) and even KKA is possible if the BB would normally 3-bet predraw with AA+;

      3) if the BTN pairs up, he could check back with any decent pair; what if he pairs up on something like 8s? Normally, the BB could have 88 so making 88+ should be okay for showdown value. It seems best that the BTN should treat low pairs like 55 or weaker as "bluffs" and 66/77 might depend on who the BB is.


      From the BB's perspective, basically a lot depends on how wide the BTN's perceived semibluffing range is; if it's only flush draws or better with just a few/no straight draws, it's funny that in many cases ( depends on BTN's betting range - he could bet some hands like JJ that have showdown value which are incorrect to bet ), the BB really can't call with a hand like QQ because the BTN's range when drawing one card is too strong - i.e., there are too many combinations in the two pair or better range compared to "bluffs". In theory, the BTN ought to have enough semibluffing hands so that the BB will be indifferent to calling with unimproved JJ, but in practice, you don't usually see this at the lower limits ( ~$2-4 or lower ). If the opener is one spot earlier ( cutoff ), he's likely not going to open so wide with semibluffs as the BTN might "punish" him with a 3-bet, and we're likely working with a slightly different "mix" of semibluffing hands compared to the case on the BTN.


      If you want more details, spam/PM me at the other place! :)
    • jbpatzer
      jbpatzer
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2009 Posts: 6,944
      Originally posted by bigpooch

      If you want more details, spam/PM me at the other place! :)
      No, no, no! Keep it here. Welcome to Pokerstrategy Mr Pooch.
    • Huricano
      Huricano
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.08.2010 Posts: 2,228
      Originally posted by jbpatzer
      Originally posted by bigpooch

      If you want more details, spam/PM me at the other place! :)
      No, no, no! Keep it here. Welcome to Pokerstrategy Mr Pooch.
      You betrayed 5CD to Texas Holdem...
      You'll no longer elagile...elgiale...elagible...eligible(?) to listen complex 5cd strategy.
      Leave now and stick to Your lol no-discard 2 card hand! :s_evil:
    • jbpatzer
      jbpatzer
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2009 Posts: 6,944
      Originally posted by Huricano
      Originally posted by jbpatzer
      Originally posted by bigpooch

      If you want more details, spam/PM me at the other place! :)
      No, no, no! Keep it here. Welcome to Pokerstrategy Mr Pooch.
      You betrayed 5CD to Texas Holdem...
      You'll no longer elagile...elgiale...elagible...eligible(?) to listen complex 5cd strategy.
      Leave now and stick to Your lol no-discard 2 card hand! :s_evil:
      Pwned. :f_cry: