[NL2-NL10] Flush against my straight

    • jeszkar
      jeszkar
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.10.2011 Posts: 897
      PartyGaming - $0.02 NL - Holdem - 9 players
      Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

      UTG: $2.14
      UTG+1: $1.99
      MP: $2.00
      MP+1: $1.88
      LP: $0.56
      Hero (CO): $2.00
      BTN: $2.00
      SB: $1.93
      BB: $1.20

      SB posts SB $0.01, BB posts BB $0.02

      Pre Flop: ($0.03) Hero has T:spade: 9:spade:

      fold, UTG+1 calls $0.02, fold, fold, fold, Hero calls $0.02, BTN calls $0.02, fold, BB checks

      Flop: ($0.09, 4 players) 6:diamond: 7:heart: 8:heart:
      BB bets $0.02, fold, Hero raises to $0.15, fold, BB calls $0.13

      Turn: ($0.39, 2 players) A:heart:
      BB bets $0.02, Hero calls $0.02

      River: ($0.43, 2 players) A:diamond:
      BB bets $0.02, Hero raises to $0.30, BB calls $0.28

      Hero shows T:spade: 9:spade: (Straight, Ten High) (PreFlop 30%, Flop 57%, Turn 0%)
      BB shows J:heart: T:heart: (Flush, Ace High) (PreFlop 70%, Flop 43%, Turn 100%)
      BB wins $0.98
  • 11 replies
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Hello jeszkar,

      Preflop: You can perfectly well isolate such hands even.

      As played
      Postflop: What hands gonna pay you on the river anyways? Rather pick the passive approach and just Call and be even happy that you don't isolate against strong hands there.

      Best Regards.
    • jeszkar
      jeszkar
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.10.2011 Posts: 897
      "You can perfectly well isolate such hands even."

      With T9s? I don't think so. With this kind of hand I only want to see a cheap flop

      Postflop: "What hands gonna pay you on the river anyways?"
      Pocket pairs. He made 3 min raise. Nobody make min raise with flush.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      With T9s? I don't think so. With this kind of hand I only want to see a cheap flop

      If you don't think so then don't do it. I am just giving you advices. Write that kind of line on a peace of paper. And come back in few years and lets see if you say it again the same way. ;)

      Pocket pairs. He made 3 min raise. Nobody make min raise with flush.

      I am not going to argue here with you, if you don't like my evaluations, feel free to not to post the hands. ;)
    • jeszkar
      jeszkar
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.10.2011 Posts: 897
      I post hands because I want to learn but sometime you said things which I can't get it. Like this: I know what isolation but T9s not a strong hand. It's very speculatic hand and it's only good for making straight (of course I can make flush with it, but it would be only a T high flush). And because I can't read (because of catch-22) about isolation I use isolation only with a good hand (AT-AQ mostly suited).
      For me it's not enought the "Do this." or "Not do this" I need to understand why I should do or not do.
    • numbnutter
      numbnutter
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.09.2011 Posts: 139
      Originally posted by jeszkar
      I post hands because I want to learn but sometime you said things which I can't get it. Like this: I know what isolation but T9s not a strong hand. It's very speculatic hand and it's only good for making straight (of course I can make flush with it, but it would be only a T high flush). And because I can't read (because of catch-22) about isolation I use isolation only with a good hand (AT-AQ mostly suited).
      For me it's not enought the "Do this." or "Not do this" I need to understand why I should do or not do.
      To take a step towards becoming a good player you need to think about why you do certain actions by yourself.

      For example: why do you isolate a player in the first place? why not just limp in with every hand and see if you hit the flop?
      answer: because you DON'T want to see a cheap flop vs a limper. Limping generally means a very weak range, and you want to make him pay to see a flop. Your T9s is mostly way ahead of this range.
      Also consider how you look to other players if you limp behind, or if you isolate. By isolating you represent a stronger range and can more often take down the pot on the flop even if you don't hit. By limping behind you look weak too (in fact even weaker than the original limper - as you are now getting better pot odds than him and are in a later position), and therefore your bets get less respect. Also you run the risk of being isolated yourself by someone behind you, which you don't want.

      The moral of the story is: think deeper about why you do things. Veriz's job here isn't to give you a free coaching lesson every time you post a hand, it is to comment on whether he thinks your thinking is correct or not. You didn't even post your thought processes, reads, table dynamics or any stats you may have with your original post which isn't very helpful. If you want to understand why you should do certain things then think about it BEFORE you post. Then you can better understand the feedback you get too.
    • jeszkar
      jeszkar
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.10.2011 Posts: 897
      Originally posted by numbnutter

      "For example: why do you isolate a player in the first place? why not just limp in with every hand and see if you hit the flop?"

      Because some hand work better then anothers. T9s not an AA but can hit the flop hard. But if I don't hit it then it would be very difficult (or impossible) to play foward. And after I will blame myself why I even put extra money into the pot.

      "Your T9s is mostly way ahead of this range."
      Actually I wasn't. And anyway why do you sayI would be ahead? Even against only one opponent T9s barely better then a coinflip (52.33%). Against more opponents I cleary underdog.

      "By isolating you represent a stronger range and can more often take down the pot on the flop even if you don't hit."

      Only if I'm not against loose opponent(s), if I'm not in multiway pot and if the board is not draw heavy.

      "and therefore your bets get less respect."
      Why? If I bet a multiway pot then that represent a streng. If I only Cbet that can be easily a bluff.

      "Also you run the risk of being isolated yourself by someone behind you, which you don't want."
      Bad luck but I'm only lost 1 BB, also If I isolate there are still be the danger of 3bet.

      "think deeper about why you do things. Veriz's job here isn't to give you a free coaching lesson every time you post a hand, it is to comment on whether he thinks your thinking is correct or not."
      Therefor I not supposted to post my hand. If I don't get advice then I can ask anybody who play poker. But I don't want that, because Veriz cleary play better then a random poker player.


      "You didn't even post your thought processes, reads, table dynamics or any stats"
      I can't copy stats from PT3 and sometime the elephant doesn't refresh the hand history. I can't (nobody can't) figgure out how play the opponenet only from few hand. Yes sometime I have clear read and stats from the villain playing style, and I post it when I know. At this hand I've got nothing.

      "If you want to understand why you should do certain things then think about it BEFORE you post."
      I image a school where the teacher doesn't teach much but he want from the student to understand everything (also use it). Can this school work. Not really.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Thanks for the comment numbnutter, good post.

      But the main idea with isolating is that:
      a) we make opponent to fold preflop = $profit.
      b) we make opponent to fold postflop with CB = $profit.
      c) we have position and if we hit big, we can decide what to do on the flop = $profit.
      d) and more advanced plays like double/triple barreling to make some weaker pairs/PPs to fold with reads/stats.

      If you limp, from where comes the profit?
      a) If you hit = $profit.
      b) very small chance when bet but then have less fold equity since you didn't have the initiative preflop = no-$profit.
    • RasTweet
      RasTweet
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.12.2009 Posts: 4,553
      Originally posted by jeszkar
      He made 3 min raise. Nobody make min raise with flush.
      He made 3 min bets, not raises. But that ain't the problem. Often u see on NL2 that fishes make min 3 bets with made hands.
      It has nothing to do with this hand, but just keep it in mind.

      Regards
      RasTweet
    • numbnutter
      numbnutter
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.09.2011 Posts: 139
      Originally posted by numbnutter

      "Your T9s is mostly way ahead of this range."

      Originally posted by jeszkar

      Actually I wasn't. And anyway why do you sayI would be ahead? Even against only one opponent T9s barely better then a coinflip (52.33%). Against more opponents I cleary underdog.
      Don't know where you got these figures from. T9s has 54% equity vs any two random cards, and if you remove all the cards he would raise with from his range it's even higher than this. Sure it's not a massive edge but even a small edge is profitable long term.

      Originally posted by numbnutter
      "By isolating you represent a stronger range and can more often take down the pot on the flop even if you don't hit."

      Originally posted by jeszkar
      Only if I'm not against loose opponent(s), if I'm not in multiway pot and if the board is not draw heavy.
      Well given that you didn't post any stats or reads we can't assume anything about our opponents. You're much less likely to be in a multiway pot if you isolate, and you can't base your preflop decisions on the potential board texture - that would be stupid.

      Originally posted by numbnutter
      "and therefore your bets get less respect."
      Originally posted by jeszkar
      Why? If I bet a multiway pot then that represent a streng. If I only Cbet that can be easily a bluff.
      You shouldn't be bluffing at multiway pots. The chances of making a pair or better on the flop are around 33%, which means as soon as 3 or more people are involved in the pot it's pretty likely that someone will have hit it. Continuation bets work because most of the time your opponent won't have hit if you are heads up.

      Originally posted by numbnutter
      "Also you run the risk of being isolated yourself by someone behind you, which you don't want."
      Originally posted by jeszkar
      Bad luck but I'm only lost 1 BB, also If I isolate there are still be the danger of 3bet.
      Yeah you only lost 1BB, but you could have gained 2.5BB if everyone folded preflop or even more if they saw the flop and folded to a cbet. Which means you're losing more like 3BB each time you play it this way instead.
      Given that the standard 3bet percentage on nl2 is around 2% I don't think you have to be too worried about getting 3bet.



      Originally posted by numbnutter
      "You didn't even post your thought processes, reads, table dynamics or any stats"
      Originally posted by jeszkar
      I can't copy stats from PT3 and sometime the elephant doesn't refresh the hand history. I can't (nobody can't) figgure out how play the opponenet only from few hand. Yes sometime I have clear read and stats from the villain playing style, and I post it when I know. At this hand I've got nothing.
      You still didn't post your thought process though. What range did you give him on each street? Why did you do each action that you did? These are all very important pieces of information and looking at them is key to improving your game.

      Originally posted by numbnutter
      "If you want to understand why you should do certain things then think about it BEFORE you post."
      Originally posted by jeszkar
      I image a school where the teacher doesn't teach much but he want from the student to understand everything (also use it). Can this school work. Not really.
      This is known as independent learning and is a pretty standard teaching practise in universities. Lecturers don't have time to individually teach 200+ students so they give them the bare theory and expect the students to do more studying on their own. If you can master independent learning then you can teach yourself to do almost anything you want to.


      The teaching you get on this site is a privilege, not a right. You're not paying anything for it so you should be a little more thankful for the advice you are getting. I'm sure Veriz will give you all the time in the world if you want to pay the $$ for a private coaching session with him :D
    • jeszkar
      jeszkar
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.10.2011 Posts: 897
      Originally posted by numbnutter
      Originally posted by numbnutter

      "Your T9s is mostly way ahead of this range."

      Originally posted by jeszkar

      Actually I wasn't. And anyway why do you sayI would be ahead? Even against only one opponent T9s barely better then a coinflip (52.33%). Against more opponents I cleary underdog.
      Don't know where you got these figures from. T9s has 54% equity vs any two random cards, and if you remove all the cards he would raise with from his range it's even higher than this. Sure it's not a massive edge but even a small edge is profitable long term.
      Doesn't really matter which is the exact number, and I can't tell where is this number came from (somebody may say I link to another poker page). Which is really matter they will play back mostly with stronger hand. Yes against random hand I got the small edge but most of these random hand not playable (not even for a bad player).

      Originally posted by numbnutter
      "By isolating you represent a stronger range and can more often take down the pot on the flop even if you don't hit."

      Originally posted by jeszkar
      Only if I'm not against loose opponent(s), if I'm not in multiway pot and if the board is not draw heavy.
      Well given that you didn't post any stats or reads we can't assume anything about our opponents. You're much less likely to be in a multiway pot if you isolate, and you can't base your preflop decisions on the potential board texture - that would be stupid.
      I'm not speaking about this hand. I'm speaking generally. If I don't hit the flop and the board is draw heavy or the opponent(s) loose, there is not much need to Cbet.

      Originally posted by numbnutter
      "and therefore your bets get less respect."
      Originally posted by jeszkar
      Why? If I bet a multiway pot then that represent a streng. If I only Cbet that can be easily a bluff.
      You shouldn't be bluffing at multiway pots. The chances of making a pair or better on the flop are around 33%, which means as soon as 3 or more people are involved in the pot it's pretty likely that someone will have hit it. Continuation bets work because most of the time your opponent won't have hit if you are heads up.

      Yes I'm know, and I'm speaking about this. In multiway pot I can make bet only with made hands no matter of I raised pre-flop or I just limped. So if I raise in multiway pot that represent a made hand. If I Cbet the opponent easily can think that only a Cbet bluff (and sometime he is right).

      Originally posted by numbnutter
      "Also you run the risk of being isolated yourself by someone behind you, which you don't want."
      Originally posted by jeszkar
      Bad luck but I'm only lost 1 BB, also If I isolate there are still be the danger of 3bet.
      Yeah you only lost 1BB, but you could have gained 2.5BB if everyone folded preflop or even more if they saw the flop and folded to a cbet. Which means you're losing more like 3BB each time you play it this way instead.
      Given that the standard 3bet percentage on nl2 is around 2% I don't think you have to be too worried about getting 3bet.

      First I'm not looking for the small pot (and I think nobody), I looking for a hand where I can put all of my money of the pot. Second: If I raise i should raise 4BB. I risk 4BB for 2.5BB with a marginal hand in a play where lot of players not always can fold their hands. And there are 3bet not standard size 3bet, but I meet weak 3bet often.

      Originally posted by numbnutter
      "You didn't even post your thought processes, reads, table dynamics or any stats"
      Originally posted by jeszkar
      I can't copy stats from PT3 and sometime the elephant doesn't refresh the hand history. I can't (nobody can't) figgure out how play the opponenet only from few hand. Yes sometime I have clear read and stats from the villain playing style, and I post it when I know. At this hand I've got nothing.
      You still didn't post your thought process though. What range did you give him on each street? Why did you do each action that you did? These are all very important pieces of information and looking at them is key to improving your game.

      Well:
      Flop: I got made hand, but there is a flush danger. I bet for protection and value.
      Turn: An another heart, my straight maybe not stong enough anymore. So I slow down. The bet is weak I so decide to call.
      River: Another weak bet. I think he maybe haven't got flush (not really make sense his beting size), so I raise for the value.


      Originally posted by numbnutter
      "If you want to understand why you should do certain things then think about it BEFORE you post."
      Originally posted by jeszkar
      I image a school where the teacher doesn't teach much but he want from the student to understand everything (also use it). Can this school work. Not really.
      This is known as independent learning and is a pretty standard teaching practise in universities. Lecturers don't have time to individually teach 200+ students so they give them the bare theory and expect the students to do more studying on their own. If you can master independent learning then you can teach yourself to do almost anything you want to.

      OFF: Where I live this consider as a bad education. This OK when I've been with a buch of other student and I only learn theory (I don't know this is the good english word) but when I'm on practical lesson (again I don't know this is the good english word) where there are not as many student and teacher said (actually this happen to me): "make movie in an another movie with these 3 software" - and that was the only what the teacher "teached" us. A lot of my practical knowledge come from self education. But for this too need somebody who can help.

      The teaching you get on this site is a privilege, not a right. You're not paying anything for it so you should be a little more thankful for the advice you are getting. I'm sure Veriz will give you all the time in the world if you want to pay the $$ for a private coaching session with him :D

      ON: Yes, I'm not paying directly to the page but I will pay for another players while I try to follow the advices what I don't understand.

      And tell the truth when I started to post hands I though it would be like a conversation where some player who in the topic at that day say some thing what they think about the play. I never expect that one couch say somethin about all the hands.

    • numbnutter
      numbnutter
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.09.2011 Posts: 139
      Originally posted by jeszkar

      First I'm not looking for the small pot (and I think nobody), I looking for a hand where I can put all of my money of the pot. Second: If I raise i should raise 4BB. I risk 4BB for 2.5BB with a marginal hand in a play where lot of players not always can fold their hands. And there are 3bet not standard size 3bet, but I meet weak 3bet often.

      I think if you spend the time and calculate the numbers for this yourself you will find that isolating is much more profitable here :) . Limping is suggested for beginner players as it makes your postflop decisions much easier (bet if you hit, fold if you don't).
      Big pots don't happen very often, because both you and your opponent have to hit big - which is unlikely. But small pots happen a lot, and if you can win lots of small pots you can increase your winrate pretty dramatically :)

      Seriously, i'm sure you're a smart guy, do some calculations and work out how much you could win by isolating instead of limping. Work out how often you're likely to make a hand you want to take to showdown with T9s, and then how often your opponent will also have a good hand. Then compare this to all the times you can win the pot when they fold, and I think you'll find the latter is bigger. Obviously you don't believe the rest of us (including Veriz) when we tell you this so I think it is better if you work it out for yourself :)