[NL2-NL10] AA top set, scarry turn and opp shove

    • AxsisHalon
      AxsisHalon
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.12.2011 Posts: 112
      Grabbed by Holdem Manager
      NL Holdem $0.20(BB) Prima
      SB ($28.96)
      BB ($23.34)
      UTG ($31)
      UTG+1 ($3.96)
      Hero ($42.54)
      MP1 ($43.46)
      CO ($41.40)
      BTN ($25.26)

      Dealt to Hero A:diamond: A:club:

      fold, fold, Hero calls $0.20, MP1 calls $0.20, CO raises to $1, fold, SB calls $0.90, fold, Hero raises to $3.40, fold, fold, SB calls $2.40

      FLOP ($8.20) A:spade: 7:heart: 5:heart:

      SB checks, Hero bets $5.80, SB calls $5.80

      TURN ($19.80) A:spade: 7:heart: 5:heart: 3:heart:

      [color=red]SB bets $19.76 (AI), Hero ???

      what now?
  • 14 replies
    • ytsoP
      ytsoP
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.07.2011 Posts: 85
      The probability of him having the A :heart: is very slim considering you have three. As he just flat called the first raise would usually lead me to believe he has some form of high pocket pair, such as JJ, 1010 or perhaps even QQ (and deciding not to re-raise). KQ and other similar hands here seem far too week to be calling with too.

      I would have bet a lot more on the flop. Most probably $7.70/$8. But seeing as he called your bet and didn't raise would usually indicate that he didn't flop a set against you (although that would have been brilliant). I would be putting him on something like QQ, JJ, 1010. 99-88 is he's fishy.

      As you have $33.34 left and the pot is $19.76, I would probably get it all in as any reasonable bet would commit you to call a river bet anyway. Checking is silly as you'd be giving him a chance to get another heart if he already has one, and even if he didn't he could bluff a heart on the river pretty easily.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Hello AxsisHalon,

      Preflop: Lets for start talk about Limp/Raise? Makes me cry here to see such a play. And afterwards not even picking very good raise size either. What do you think they are putting you on? :D Obviously you have KK/AA here, without even looking at your hand I would 99% sure that you had that hand.

      As played
      Postflop: Folding the turn is safer, you wont see many worse hands there anyways than flushes. You made already a huge mistake preflop while playing it this way. Unless you expect him to have a lot worse sets there. Although he would most likely get them in on the flop. Only option if you expect him to play sets like that and AhXx hands you could be able to Call profitable but should we vs that amount to Call?

      Best Regards.
    • AxsisHalon
      AxsisHalon
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.12.2011 Posts: 112
      Sorry to make u cry again with pocket rocket :)
      I have to sell u my story now :)
      I limped only coz i wanted to vary my play, i sitted there for 300hands+, they saw me limp low pp from EP, and raise with AQs+, they stopped giving me action after i open raised, so i wanted to deviate my game. i was pretty sure i'd got raised as I saw many times LP were raisnig open limpers.
      i wanted to reraise them as i did, i know i screamed: hey i have AA KK AK, wanna play? but i still was happy to get the pot right there. instead i got called :) btw what's the correct 4bet raise amount??



      @ytsoP
      think once again, what type of hand could call such obvious raise,
      imo JJ+ if he puts me on AK, AQs if he puts me on KK since its less likely i have QQ or AA here coz he has blockers and he wanna try his luck. And AK if he puts me on 1010-QQ.
      And now if he called CBet, he MUST HAVE Ah, coz only hearts draw or Ahx could stay in the game. i cannot immagine how anyone could profitably call so large bet with suited cards from SB.

      The big problem on the turn is what he holds: Ah and Jh,Qh,Kh? or AhJ+offsuit.
      his shove here puts me under pressure and tought decision, coz he maight hold flush or it's semibluff: he puts me on 1010-KK= I wont call, so why he shoved then? or he puts me on AK, AA and he tries his luck to draw to the nut flush and beat my hand

      @veriz
      2 cases:
      I play against flush, so I'm 18:82 to hit FH
      I play against flush draw so I'm 84:16 (8outs coz he holds Ah) to win
      the question is how likely he has flush there? 50/50?
      I called that shove, not because of that calculation( i had only 20 secs), but because I made my decision already on the flop to go for stacks in this hand.
      Couple of hands before I 4betshipped preflop AA and I lost to QQ set, and this time I decided to shove again at last on the river, it was big hand and i read somehere to dont be afraid of ghost every time u open the closet.
      I cannot make pr0 folds yet, but i work on it :)
      Coach, what do u think about villains play here, I mean postflop, as pre he should easily fold. Was that shove correct move? would u play like that?
      Villain's shown AhQs. (river was blank).
    • ytsoP
      ytsoP
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.07.2011 Posts: 85
      Originally posted by AxsisHalon
      Sorry to make u cry again with pocket rocket :)
      I have to sell u my story now :)
      I limped only coz i wanted to vary my play, i sitted there for 300hands+, they saw me limp low pp from EP, and raise with AQs+, they stopped giving me action after i open raised, so i wanted to deviate my game. i was pretty sure i'd got raised as I saw many times LP were raisnig open limpers.
      i wanted to reraise them as i did, i know i screamed: hey i have AA KK AK, wanna play? but i still was happy to get the pot right there. instead i got called :) btw what's the correct 4bet raise amount??



      @ytsoP
      think once again, what type of hand could call such obvious raise,
      imo JJ+ if he puts me on AK, AQs if he puts me on KK since its less likely i have QQ or AA here coz he has blockers and he wanna try his luck. And AK if he puts me on 1010-QQ.
      And now if he called CBet, he MUST HAVE Ah, coz only hearts draw or Ahx could stay in the game. i cannot immagine how anyone could profitably call so large bet with suited cards from SB.

      The big problem on the turn is what he holds: Ah and Jh,Qh,Kh? or AhJ+offsuit.
      his shove here puts me under pressure and tought decision, coz he maight hold flush or it's semibluff: he puts me on 1010-KK= I wont call, so why he shoved then? or he puts me on AK, AA and he tries his luck to draw to the nut flush and beat my hand

      @veriz
      2 cases:
      I play against flush, so I'm 18:82 to hit FH
      I play against flush draw so I'm 84:16 (8outs coz he holds Ah) to win
      the question is how likely he has flush there? 50/50?
      I called that shove, not because of that calculation( i had only 20 secs), but because I made my decision already on the flop to go for stacks in this hand.
      Couple of hands before I 4betshipped preflop AA and I lost to QQ set, and this time I decided to shove again at last on the river, it was big hand and i read somehere to dont be afraid of ghost every time u open the closet.
      I cannot make pr0 folds yet, but i work on it :)
      Coach, what do u think about villains play here, I mean postflop, as pre he should easily fold. Was that shove correct move? would u play like that?
      Villain's shown AhQs. (river was blank).
      What did he have?
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      I limped only coz i wanted to vary my play

      :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: Mate, really read a bit the articles, strongly advice to do that or you wont ever play profitable poker.

      the question is how likely he has flush there? 50/50?

      What flushdraw? Only One Ace could be ever the reasonable flushdraw here, no worse would ever ship!

      Coach, what do u think about villains play here, I mean postflop, as pre he should easily fold. Was that shove correct move? would u play like that?

      He isn't getting called from worse hands so his shove doesn't make much of sense. Just got happy about the FD and shipped. But most of the time he will come there with the flush mainly for that money.

      For conclusion for you, do you think he is ever having there worse sets? What's the opponent we are against? VPIP/PFR for example?

      a) we expect him to have just FD+TP as AhKx/AhQx and sets -> against that kind of range we go broke.
      b) we don't expect him to ship like that with sets nor AhXx hands and rather not have those sets in his range -> we can't go broke and most likely wont get the equity.

      If you decide that he has the range of a) -> we go broke cause we get the equity.
    • AxsisHalon
      AxsisHalon
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.12.2011 Posts: 112
      Villain's shown AhQs.
      I completly forgot about villains stas :(

      VP/27 PFR/11 AgF/1.4 CB/100(7) FCbet/57(7)
      3b/5(40) f3b/33(3) steal/20 wtsd/22(49) w$sd/44(11) hands/192

      I know u have a lot of work here, but u need to read my post carefully :)
      I put him straightaway on Ah but second card was the problem
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by AxsisHalon
      Villain's shown AhQs.
      I completly forgot about villains stas :(

      VP/27 PFR/11 AgF/1.4 CB/100(7) FCbet/57(7)
      3b/5(40) f3b/33(3) steal/20 wtsd/22(49) w$sd/44(11) hands/192

      I know u have a lot of work here, but u need to read my post carefully :)
      I put him straightaway on Ah but second card was the problem
      Mate, you didn't post anything into your first post, it's empty, no stats no anything. :P
    • AxsisHalon
      AxsisHalon
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.12.2011 Posts: 112
      begginer mistakes :(
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by AxsisHalon
      begginer mistakes :(
      No worries. :) We came to conclusion by the end anyways, that's why discussions are good.
    • AxsisHalon
      AxsisHalon
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.12.2011 Posts: 112
      what would be correct villains (OOP) move with completed flush on the turn,
      shove as he did or rather check/shove as he could be pretty sure I'd bet the turn?
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by AxsisHalon
      what would be correct villains (OOP) move with completed flush on the turn,
      shove as he did or rather check/shove as he could be pretty sure I'd bet the turn?
      He shouldn't be playing the hand in first place preflop.

      You mean he did complete or he had the same hand as you reported? He should just Check cause there ain't going to be worse hands which Call him, neither he doesn't need to protect from much. So I would Check and let him continue with bluffs or maybe even some PPs which have a in hit.
    • CallumN
      CallumN
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.01.2012 Posts: 1,141
      Originally posted by veriz
      As played
      Postflop: Folding the turn is safer, you wont see many worse hands there anyways than flushes. You made already a huge mistake preflop while playing it this way. Unless you expect him to have a lot worse sets there. Although he would most likely get them in on the flop. Only option if you expect him to play sets like that and AhXx hands you could be able to Call profitable but should we vs that amount to Call?.
      Nice level
    • AxsisHalon
      AxsisHalon
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.12.2011 Posts: 112
      I meant if he held AhKh, and completed flush on the turn. Whats the correct Villain's move? shove straightaway or check in order to shove after my Cturn bet.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by AxsisHalon
      I meant if he held AhKh, and completed flush on the turn. Whats the correct Villain's move? shove straightaway or check in order to shove after my Cturn bet.
      If he had such a hand he would be playing Check/Call but what we did include into his shipping range and us still a lot to Call is smaller flushes which time to time try to protect their hand. And of course even with the made flush A:hK he might get too excited about it and ship. :D But that's true that usually it doesn't make sense to ship the nuts but towards weaker flushes which try to protect.