[NL2-NL10] NL10SH TT but. against sb 3-bet

    • sirilidion
      sirilidion
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.04.2008 Posts: 1,575
      $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Holdem
      PokerStars
      6 Players
      Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

      Stacks:
      UTG ($17.63)
      UTG+1 ($3.41)
      CO ($11.65)
      sirilidion (BTN) ($13.74)
      SB ($10.84)
      BB ($10)

      Pre-Flop: ($0.15, 6 players) sirilidion is BTN 10:spade: 10:diamond:
      1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.10, 1 fold, sirilidion raises to $0.40, SB raises to $1.35, 1 fold, UTG+1 folds, sirilidion calls $0.95

      Flop: 5:club: 5:diamond: 2:spade: ($2.90, 2 players)
      SB checks, sirilidion checks

      Turn: 8:spade: ($2.90, 2 players)
      SB bets $2, sirilidion calls $2

      River: 8:club: ($6.90, 2 players)
      SB checks, sirilidion bets $3, SB calls $3
  • 12 replies
    • sausage646
      sausage646
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.03.2010 Posts: 567
      fold pre flop : don't have set mining odds

      as played

      bet/fold = flop (protect hand)
      check/fold = turn
      check/fold = river
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Hello sirilidion,

      Preflop: Calling is out of question here vs the 3bet, you didn't say anything about the oppoennt and most likely standard fold for me.

      As played
      Flop: Why ain't you betting the flop and protecting your hand? He may easily have just overcards, protect your hand.

      As played
      Turn: What do you think he is betting now which didn't Bet the turn? :) Most likely he ain't betting any weaker hands and could easily even trap there. Therefore if you didn't bet the flop then rather fold it here. What do you expect to beat? To avoid such a situation -> Bet flop!

      As played
      River: What worse hands do you expect him to Call here? He has to be really loose to Call with Ace high here, so I'd just Check behind and take a look at his hand.

      Best Regards.
    • sirilidion
      sirilidion
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.04.2008 Posts: 1,575
      Preflop: I don't know how loose you steal on the button and cu but I steal fairly loose range in exchange I get probably 3-betted more often then someone that is really nitty. With that is mind I really think most people would 3-bet with a rangeat east most pairs, Axs, A8o and folding there but. against sb in a 6-max game and folding TT in such a situation seems super nitty for me.

      That said I would either make a small 4-bet and fold to an unknown 5-bet shove considering I don't have enough hands to know anything about his 5-bet tendencies and most on this limit will only do it with strong hands. Or what I did here call the 3-bet and reevaluate your hand after the flop. You say Calling his 3-bet is out of the qeustion could you go a bit more in detail why you think this way?

      Flop: As I stated preflop I think he mostly has Axs, A8o and most pairs in his range. Alot of his range missed here and it is hand for his to rep much on this flop on the other hand he probably knows this flop most likely doesn't improve my hand either. So I see him either c/f alot of his overcard or c/r these as a bluff and he might play and he might also be doing this with his overpairs forcing me to fold the TT. Also Most likely if we where playing for stacks I don't see my hand being best alot of the time and with checking on this dry board he most likely doesn't have more then 6 outs to improve to a better hand then me.

      Turn: by checking the flop I really underep my hand so it is pretty likely he will bet every turn with his range he 3-betted pre. Sure sometimes he might be trapping you but in the majority of times he is betting the turn because you showed weakness in checking behind the flop. So I think you at least have to call the turn and evualte your hand on the river.

      River: I agree it is a thin valuebet but do think he can call with A high considering we haven't shown any strenght in the hand so he might think it will even alot of tighter player would call the bet with A high( And for the record he did end up calling my riverbet with AQo high). Also I considered that he might call with pairs like 66,77,88,99 although I would think he would most likely c-bet these hands. An other qeustion is though what better hands then TT would you think he woud check the river. I for one expect most of the hands that beat me to lead the river.
    • antstruk
      antstruk
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.08.2010 Posts: 494
      Calling with the pocket 10s is kind of gross but folding seems a bit too nitty. At this point we can put him on JJ+ and AQ+. The flop is a MUST bet.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Preflop: I don't know how loose you steal on the button and cu but I steal fairly loose range in exchange

      You joking right?

      You say Calling his 3-bet is out of the qeustion could you go a bit more in detail why you think this way?

      I say that:
      a) I wasn't on the table;
      b) I don't know how you play;
      c) I don't have any stats at all;
      d) Opponents raises bigger than standard raise size;
      Conclusion -> Against different opponents we play differently.

      Flop: As I stated preflop I think he mostly has Axs, A8o and most pairs in his range.

      So, why don't you protect your hand from overcards? Doesn't make sense at all. You are giving him free cards and if he didn't bluff on the flop then very often he can easily Check also the turn! 99% Bet for me without knowing anything about him, 1% is the time when I lose connection.

      Turn <- Go back to flop and Bet. Of course we could talk about hero-calling, turning our hand into bluff-catcher or whatever but I would never do it but rather Bet the flop and protect.

      River -> As I said, no value for me, I Check behind, take a note with what he plays that = HUGE PROFIT in long run me rather such a thin value.
    • sirilidion
      sirilidion
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.04.2008 Posts: 1,575
      Originally posted by antstruk
      Calling with the pocket 10s is kind of gross but folding seems a bit too nitty. At this point we can put him on JJ+ and AQ+. The flop is a MUST bet.
      If we put him on such a value and as a standard assuption I would agree with veriz and TT would be a fold. I ague that asuming such a tight 3-bet as a standard against unknown will not maximice you expected value because on average unknowns will 3-bet you much looser in general.
    • sirilidion
      sirilidion
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.04.2008 Posts: 1,575
      You joking right?


      joking about what? stealing loose on the button? or joking about you being tight?

      If the first then no I steal really loose espacially if the blinds are tight, if the second.Well I don't know you that good, but you folding TT but against blinds in position in a 6-max game, asuming villian must be trapping on the but without reads, checking down when there is a decent chance to get some extra value on the river doesn't exactly make you seem like a loose TAG or a good LAG player.

      I say that:
      a) I wasn't on the table;
      b) I don't know how you play;
      c) I don't have any stats at all;
      d) Opponents raises bigger than standard raise size;
      Conclusion -> Against different opponents we play differently.


      Even without this you are pretty much assuming an unknown only has a value range till you have enough hands/ reads to presume otherwise. Because if your not assuming that folding TT pre seems really bad.

      So, why don't you protect your hand from overcards? Doesn't make sense at all. You are giving him free cards and if he didn't bluff on the flop then very often he can easily Check also the turn! 99% Bet for me without knowing anything about him, 1% is the time when I lose connection.


      I did explain my reasoning in my last post. maybe you read over it. But I will summeries it for you

      1. we don't have a hand we woud be confident being best would we play for stack. So I like keeping the pot small
      2. The flop doesn't seem to have improved any of both of our range. Vilian could easily use that too his advantage and c/r me with his entire range. Which would force me to fold what might be the best hand.
      3. At best villian has only at best 6 out to improve if we have the best hand which means if we have the best hand in about 85 % of the time we still have the best hand on the turn. So there isn't a real need to protect our hand.
      4. we underrep our hand which might give us value over hands that might have c/f the flop.

      You might disagree with my reasoning but then I would like to know why you think that way.

      Turn <- Go back to flop and Bet. Of course we could talk about hero-calling, turning our hand into bluff-catcher or whatever but I would never do it but rather Bet the flop and protect.


      like I said before we really underrep. our hand so I really don't think it is far fetched that most unknowns would try to steal the pot here or since we showed so much weakness valuebet worse as well as the value range that has us beat.

      River -> As I said, no value for me, I Check behind, take a note with what he plays that = HUGE PROFIT in long run me rather such a thin value.


      With his check on the turn I 'don't see that many players play this way with better hands then TT and I do see hands worse that might call the bet. I don't see how making the thin value bet meands I don't note my opponent after the hand or explain why you would not go for max value in the hand.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      joking about what? stealing loose on the button? or joking about you being tight?

      Joking about that it actually doesn't have much to do with you stealing loose. Cause he is unknown to you, so how does he know you? Doesn't make sense. How he can have information on you but you don't?

      1. we don't have a hand we woud be confident being best would we play for stack. So I like keeping the pot small

      So, it's better to Check behind, let him catch an overcard and then Call? Or what's your plan if an overcard comes? You plan just to fold? Practically hoping non-J/Q/K/A to come.

      2. The flop doesn't seem to have improved any of both of our range. Vilian could easily use that too his advantage and c/r me with his entire range. Which would force me to fold what might be the best hand.

      Why not? Your calling range contains a lot of PPs. And why should he even Check/Raise while we have shown strength by calling his 3bet? Wow, you are totally over-leveling yourself. We can't assume that on every unknown opponent.

      3. At best villian has only at best 6 out to improve if we have the best hand which means if we have the best hand in about 85 % of the time we still have the best hand on the turn. So there isn't a real need to protect our hand.

      So if you have the best hand why don't you Bet then? Protect and get value from them. Find out where you stand with it at the same time than see an overcard and then even what? Fold then hand for example if an Ace comes?

      4. we underrep our hand which might give us value over hands that might have c/f the flop.

      Why so? He is calling any worse PP which you are value-betting the river, he might even Call with just overcards if he is loose enough like AK.

      With his check on the turn I 'don't see that many players play this way with better hands then TT and I do see hands worse that might call the bet. I don't see how making the thin value bet meands I don't note my opponent after the hand or explain why you would not go for max value in the hand.

      Guess you meant river. Why not? He could easily turn his small PP as JJ/QQ also into pot control mode as you did. If he doesn't Call you practically you will have the information that he has just Ace high but if we Check behind we might see JJ/QQ and can note down that he plays passively with them.
    • sirilidion
      sirilidion
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.04.2008 Posts: 1,575
      Joking about that it actually doesn't have much to do with you stealing loose. Cause he is unknown to you, so how does he know you? Doesn't make sense. How he can have information on you but you don't?


      don't know exacly what you trying to say. Think you mean that he doesn't have any information because he is unknown? Well that isn't exacly the case I did have some hands on my opponent just I am not sure it is enough for the stats to be relaiable.

      So, it's better to Check behind, let him catch an overcard and then Call? Or what's your plan if an overcard comes? You plan just to fold? Practically hoping non-J/Q/K/A to come.


      If an A comes on the turn and villian bets out I think I fold. Alot of het range has an A in it and if villian doesn't have an A it is probably a scarecard for him too. So I don't think calling the a bet on a A turn will show a profit in the long run. On a J,Q,K turn I would call the turn and then most likely fold river if he second barrles. If he checks the river then I would just c behind there isn't alot worse then that woud call. If he checks the turn on any overcard I would ofcourse bet out since check both flop and turn seems really weak.

      Why not? Your calling range contains a lot of PPs. And why should he even Check/Raise while we have shown strength by calling his 3bet? Wow, you are totally over-leveling yourself. We can't assume that on every unknown opponent.


      Well I am not assuming he would c/r me as a bluff just that it could happen and the I would have to fold what might be the best hand.But your probably right and most people wouldn't level themselves in c/r as a bluff on these limits often enough to need to worry about it. The otherpoint still stand though why I choose for a pot-control line here.

      Why so? He is calling any worse PP which you are value-betting the river, he might even Call with just overcards if he is loose enough like AK.


      sure he might c/c worse on the flop, but how would be proceed then 2nd barrle? c behind turn fold to a river bet or call? fold to turn lead? If he c/c worse you really don't have that much more information then when you checked behind flop only a bigger pot and he could ofcourse easily also c/c better hands.

      Guess you meant river. Why not? He could easily turn his small PP as JJ/QQ also into pot control mode as you did. If he doesn't Call you practically you will have the information that he has just Ace high but if we Check behind we might see JJ/QQ and can note down that he plays passively with them.


      I didn't expect him to play QQ this way but I geuss it is possible. even so I think he would be capable of calling the river bet with all his Ax hands that he 3-betted pre, 66,77,,99,TT and then JJ,QQ. I think it more likely that he would lead any better hands on the river.

      nl.pokerstrategy.com
      Board: 5d2s5c8s8c
      Equity Winst Split
      MP2 8.57% 8.23% 0.34% { QQ-99, 77-66, A9s+, A7s-A6s, A4s-A2s, A9o+, A7o-A6o }
      MP3 91.43% 91.09% 0.34% { TdTs }


      So if he cals with this range our thin value bet shows a good profit in the long run and I can still make a note after he calls my river bet.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      don't know exacly what you trying to say. Think you mean that he doesn't have any information because he is unknown? Well that isn't exacly the case I did have some hands on my opponent just I am not sure it is enough for the stats to be relaiable.

      So how do you assume that he know so much about you? You talk against yourself here. Decide then which part, are you stealing loose or not, how many hands did you have? How often did you steal? Also it's not a stealing situation but rather isolating situation while you have a limper.

      If an A comes on the turn and villian bets out I think I fold. Alot of het range has an A in it and if villian doesn't have an A it is probably a scarecard for him too. So I don't think calling the a bet on a A turn will show a profit in the long run. On a J,Q,K turn I would call the turn and then most likely fold river if he second barrles. If he checks the river then I would just c behind there isn't alot worse then that woud call. If he checks the turn on any overcard I would ofcourse bet out since check both flop and turn seems really weak.

      Well, my play with Ax hands on turn would be also to Check if I Checked the flop cause exactly to induce you to bluff. Overall your plan is good but now again I still disagree with Checking the flop which I would have never done and protect my hand.

      sure he might c/c worse on the flop, but how would be proceed then 2nd barrle? c behind turn fold to a river bet or call? fold to turn lead? If he c/c worse you really don't have that much more information then when you checked behind flop only a bigger pot and he could ofcourse easily also c/c better hands.

      Why should we 2nd barrel? I would just Check behind the turn and reevaluate it on the river. If he didn't lead the flop then most likely he isn't Check/Calling the flop and leading the river anyways without having a hand. His play wouldn't make sense, if he really wanted to gain fold equity why didn't he just CB himself while being PFA.


      I didn't expect him to play QQ this way but I geuss it is possible. even so I think he would be capable of calling the river bet with all his Ax hands that he 3-betted pre, 66,77,,99,TT and then JJ,QQ. I think it more likely that he would lead any better hands on the river.

      Pretty obvious that he is capable of calling the river with Ace high but now again even for that he has to be a station to do so while it's a 3bet pot. :)

      So if he cals with this range our thin value bet shows a good profit in the long run and I can still make a note after he calls my river bet.

      You are putting every Ax into his 3betting range, you practically putting every hand into his range like it's just called pot not a 3bet pot. Where do you have such a information?

      But anyways, the discussion doesn't bring neither me or you anywhere. If you don't like my evaluation or don't agree with me nobody forces you to do so. If you think you are much better with your thoughts then go for it. Good luck!
    • sirilidion
      sirilidion
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.04.2008 Posts: 1,575
      Well I think discussing our differnt opinions about the hand do help much more for me and maybe others then just assuming your right without really see why and without seeing why my line is wrong. Thanks for the discussion I really like taking about this hand.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by sirilidion
      Well I think discussing our differnt opinions about the hand do help much more for me and maybe others then just assuming your right without really see why and without seeing why my line is wrong. Thanks for the discussion I really like taking about this hand.
      You are just totally messing up different boards and not understanding when to Check behind and when not. :) If we had something like Kxx/KJx or whatsoever boards then sure, we could Check behind but not in that spot. Good luck!