[NL2-NL10] NL 2 BSS flush on river vs...

    • katrin0303
      katrin0303
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.12.2011 Posts: 45
      Hi once again.

      So here is my dilema:

      ***** Hand History for Game 1111111111 ***** (Party)
      $2.00 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Tuesday, February 07, 10:53:45 ET 2012
      Table Table 201442 (No DP) (Real Money)
      Seat 2 is the button
      Seat 6: Player6 ( $2.00 USD ) - VPIP: 18, PFR: 12, 3B: 5, AF: 3.7, Hands: 194
      Seat 1: Player1 ( $2.15 USD ) - VPIP: 25, PFR: 10, 3B: 5, AF: 1.7, Hands: 158
      Seat 9: Player9 ( $2.77 USD ) - VPIP: 7, PFR: 3, 3B: 1, AF: 6.5, Hands: 502
      Seat 8: Hero ( $4.58 USD ) - VPIP: 19, PFR: 10, 3B: 4, AF: 2.0, Hands: 25460
      Seat 7: Player7 ( $1.92 USD ) - VPIP: 36, PFR: 0, 3B: 0, AF: 0.5, Hands: 11
      Seat 2: Player2 ( $2.39 USD ) - VPIP: 12, PFR: 11, 3B: 3, AF: 1.6, Hands: 123
      Seat 4: Player4 ( $2.00 USD ) - VPIP: 9, PFR: 7, 3B: 4, AF: 2.0, Hands: 204
      Seat 5: Player5 ( $1.96 USD ) - VPIP: 24, PFR: 5, 3B: 2, AF: 1.3, Hands: 151
      Seat 3: Player3 ( $2.46 USD ) - VPIP: 100, PFR: 31, 3B: 20, AF: 1.6, Hands: 26
      Player3 posts small blind [$0.01 USD].
      Player4 posts big blind [$0.02 USD].
      ** Dealing down cards **
      Dealt to Hero [ Ad Jd ]
      Player5 calls [$0.02 USD]
      Player6 folds
      Hero raises [$0.10 USD]
      Player9 folds
      Player1 folds
      Player2 folds
      Player3 calls [$0.09 USD]
      Player4 folds
      Player5 calls [$0.08 USD]
      ** Dealing Flop ** [ 8d, 5d, Qs ]
      Player3 bets [$0.08 USD]
      Player5 calls [$0.08 USD]
      Hero calls [$0.08 USD]
      ** Dealing Turn ** [ 8c ]
      Player3 bets [$0.14 USD]
      Player5 calls [$0.14 USD]
      Hero calls [$0.14 USD]
      ** Dealing River ** [ 9d ]
      Player3 bets [$2.14 USD]
      Player5 folds
      Hero calls [$2.14 USD]
      Player3 shows [8s, 8h ]
      Hero shows [Ad, Jd ]
      Player3 wins $5.00 USD from main pot

      Did I make wright decidion on turn?

      Thx!
  • 7 replies
    • katrin0303
      katrin0303
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.12.2011 Posts: 45
      And now converted: :)

      Hand converted with online PokerStrategy.com hand converter:

      Play hand

      $0.01/$0.02 No-Limit Hold'em (8 handed)

      Known players:
      CO:
      $2.15
      BU:
      $2.39
      SB:
      $2.46
      BB:
      $2.00
      UTG2:
      $1.96
      MP1:
      $2.00
      MP2 (Hero):
      $4.58
      MP3:
      $2.77


      Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A, J.
      UTG2 calls $0.02, MP1 folds, Hero raises to $0.10, 3 folds, SB calls $0.09, BB folds, UTG2 calls $0.08.

      Flop: ($0.32) 8, 5, Q (3 players)
      SB bets $0.08, UTG2 calls $0.08, Hero calls $0.08.

      Turn: ($0.56) 8 (3 players)
      SB bets $0.14, UTG2 calls $0.14, Hero calls $0.14.

      River: ($0.98) 9 (3 players)
      SB raises to $2.14(All-In), UTG2 folds, Hero calls $2.14.

      Final Pot: $5.26.
      Results follow:

      Hero shows a flush, ace high(A J).
      SB shows four of a kind, eights(8 8).

      SB wins with four of a kind, eights(8 8).
    • rap1dw1n3r
      rap1dw1n3r
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.02.2009 Posts: 266
      I think you did. You were deep and he was betting small so unless you had a read on him that this is how he plays sets only then its a fold on the turn because you are drawing dead but if you dont have information I would just do the same thing that you did
    • michel2311
      michel2311
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.11.2011 Posts: 2,121
      Odds 4:1 and pot odds 6:1 so call is easy. River is also a easy call you got the nutsflush here. I should put him on a flush here because his weak betting and shove when the flush hits. If he bets I prob shove myself here.

      Next time please not post the results or put them in a spoiler. ;)
    • katrin0303
      katrin0303
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.12.2011 Posts: 45
      thx for input.

      i thought the same - he's either very weak or has weaker flush
    • luizsilveira
      luizsilveira
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.11.2010 Posts: 2,320
      Hi, katrin0303!

      Interesting spot.

      Please don't post the results of the hand before we evaluate as they might influence us even if we don't want it to.

      I like your call on the flop.

      On the turn it gets close. But since he might have a weaker draw himself we might call. The bad thing is: UTG2 is also just calling, so he also looks like he has a draw. It might be the case that all 3 of you have a flush draw (it's rare but of course can happen) BUT if that is indeed the case, chances are pretty slimmer a third :diamond: comes on the river, right? They are all in your hands :D

      Anyway, once he shoves river I sometimes call as you did; unfortunately, I think the correct play is to fold.

      We can't expect players to think that far on NL2 BUT it's a bit intuitive: if he has a flush, he does NOT have the nut flush and he knows it (the A :diamond: is with us). Both the UTG2 and you played like you have a flush draw, so it's likely some of you will have the A :diamond: draw. Why would he shove?

      Plus, if he bet twice so small, he's more likely to be passive. Why would a passive guy all the sudden become the incredible hulk and shove his stack? He's obviously wanting to get called by a flush.

      Sometimes we might assume he doesn't have a hand because he bet so small on the flop; however, he might have bet small to induce a raise from the other players. On the turn, he's betting small again because he wants to keep you in with your draws etc.

      All in all, I think flop is greatly played, turn is close but we can find a call, but we have to fold river. (and he would have made our life much more difficult if he checked, since we would bet our flush and, once he raised all-in, we would be in a pretty tough spot).
    • katrin0303
      katrin0303
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.12.2011 Posts: 45
      Thx for input luizsilveira.

      I won't be posting results of hand in the future like that.

      Now i understand that it was too unlikely for him to bluff on turn or think that he will go all in with set or lesser flush, unless he's complete beginner on tilt :) .

      My mistake.

      Next time I'll play much more carefully Flush draws vs. potential Full house or higher.
    • luizsilveira
      luizsilveira
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.11.2010 Posts: 2,320
      Originally posted by katrin0303
      Thx for input luizsilveira.

      I won't be posting results of hand in the future like that.

      Now i understand that it was too unlikely for him to bluff on turn or think that he will go all in with set or lesser flush, unless he's complete beginner on tilt :) .

      My mistake.

      Next time I'll play much more carefully Flush draws vs. potential Full house or higher.
      It's a mistake I do on occasion too ( :facepalm), don't worry.

      But what you said is correct and that's why it's so important to observe players. If he is a big aggro bluffer or is on complete tilt we can find an easy call there. But on the other hand, when a super passive guy all the sudden shoves a stack, alarm bells should ring in our head.

      I just wrote this in the Portuguese forums, and I'll post here too (quoting Baluga):

      "A lot of players make decisions with the rationale that their opponent is “bad.” While he may be “bad”, “bad” isn’t an accurate enough descriptor to be useful to us in many cases. I’m constantly seeing players bet QQ on a 8763 board and stacking off when a passive player raises them all in. They say, “oh, he’s so bad, I couldn’t fold” when they get stacked by a set of eights. What they should’ve said was “oh, he’s so passive, I had to fold.”

      Don't pay off the passive guys and you'll save loads of $.

      Also, yeah, your draws lose a lot of value on paired board, exactly because you have quite a bit of reverse implied odds when all the money goes in.