SB play mid-late game

    • kolonel71
      kolonel71
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.06.2009 Posts: 193
      This was a result of someone picking this up during a recent sweat session.

      Situation :

      Position : SB
      Players : 4-6
      Eff stacks : 13bb or less
      Pre Action : unopened

      He suggested that this spot would be better played as an ATC shove. So i decided to filter out my hands where i folded this spot, and ran it through SNGWiz. The only time it was not ATC, was when a short stack had moved all in. Even then, the range was (22+,A2+,K2+,Q5+,Q2s+,J7+,J2s+,T7+,T3s+,97+,94s+,86+,84s+,76,73s+,65,63s+,53s+,43s)

      Upto how many effective bb's would be recommended for this to still be profitable ?

      The reason i bring this up, is i have had some spots where i will open here with a vulnerable hand , only to have BB shove over or even call, or end up folding too many hands.

      Thoughts ?
  • 5 replies
    • Th0m4sBC
      Th0m4sBC
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.06.2006 Posts: 7,550
      There are different things to consider.

      First of all, if we are talking about 9 people SNGs with a 50/30/20 structure, the game plan you use for 6 players remaining is lots different then the one you use for 4 players (bubble).

      Second of all, it depends on what your opponent does call, really. I have played a couple of regulars who have jamed <=10BB ATC in the blind battle. Me being in the BB in knowing that puts their stack in Danger, because I can and will counter adjust.

      Third of all, what about the value? If your opponent does not counter adjust and he will push over 80% of your minraises, why would you wanna max your fold equity with your premium holdings?

      You also have to ask yourself the question: can he even call me?
      You have the SNG Wizard, use it!

      Simulate bubble situations where you are the short stack pushing in the big stack, a situation where you are a middle stack pushing in a big stack with two small stacks behind, being a big stack pushing in a small / middle stack with one of the other kind of stacks behind.

      You will soon find out, that as a big stack your FE against mid stacks is much bigger then against small stacks (they need to improve) and also notice that you have to be much more conservative as midstack if you push into a big stack.

      Therefore you shall notice that any piece of 'general' advice in this matter would never be max your expectation. Some people might wanna talk you into useing NASH in this situation. Then again, you should allways keep in mind, that NASH is a perfect balance. If you push according to NASH and your opp calls according to NASH you will lose - because of the rake - in the long run. If you see no weak spot in once game, useing NASH might be your 'best' option, simply because everything else seems to be a worse option.

      Last but not least: if you know what range he calls with, everything else is pure math. But you will not be able to do this math while playing, this is why experience and after session analysis with the SNG wizard (or equivalent tools) is so important.
    • kolonel71
      kolonel71
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.06.2009 Posts: 193
      Again Thomas, thanks for the in depth explanation, it tends to make me think more about what i am asking. We are definately talking about 9mans,

      I loaded up SNGWiz, and filtered out every hand (55) where effective stacks were 13bb or less and it was unopened to me in the SB with 4-6 players at any time. No matter what stack size (b vs b), or player calling range was set to, SNGWiz had every spot as a PUSH.

      Here is a scenario i set up in Wiz and thought that it was wrong to push :

      PokerStars NLHE Tournament, ($1.50+$0.25), t100/t200/t25 blinds, 4 handed

      {Tournament|PokerStars|100|200|25|Chip}

      CO: t660 2.9 BBs {Player|CO|660|Fold|25}
      BTN: t2430 11 BBs {Player|BTN|2430|Fold|25}
      Hero: t4390 20 BBs {Player|Hero|4390|Kc|2s}
      BB: t6050 27 BBs {Player|BB|6050|Check|25|Very loose|168|29}

      Preflop: Hero is SB with 9:club: 6:spade:
      2 folds, Hero?

      Opponent calling ranges when hero pushes:
      BB (14+)
    • kolonel71
      kolonel71
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.06.2009 Posts: 193
      Idiot.

      Had an aha moment when i noticed by adjusting opponent type to Very Loose, it only changes his calling range to 14%. By adjusting it to a reasonable range, then the shoving range is reduced, and i am sure i am safe to say that there are regs who will exploit this and call these shoves with a lot wider range.

      Theory here is to examine and define what type of player will call with what particular range. We obviously cant use too many stats as we would not have enough of a sample to get an accurate read.

      I suppose it is all about practice, and in game situations. Guess i am also still learning SNGWiz too.

      Thanks again for all input guys.
    • Th0m4sBC
      Th0m4sBC
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.06.2006 Posts: 7,550
      The example with 96o is not a bad one actually. It shows that you have plenty of fold equity if there is a small stake behind you.

      There is another thing, that you need to consider (which SNG wizard does not do and neither does NASH or the ICM tool from pokerstrategy): when is the shortstack going to the blind again?
      When are you supposed to go trough the blind again? I believe it was pzhon who figured out a way for SNG wizard to take this fact in consideration, given the fact that you come in the BB in the next hand. There is a certain negative (?) edge that you have to use in order to get the configuration right.
    • kolonel71
      kolonel71
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.06.2009 Posts: 193
      Looking forward to tearing down SNGWiz and maximising the benefits from it.

      Will also go over pzhon videos and incorporate with the setup of SNGWiz, and hopefully get a better handle on it.

      Thanks again mate.