The Most Difficult Street in NLHE

  • Poll
    • What street do you think the average micro stakes player finds the most difficult to play?

      • 109
        (C) Turn
        61%
      • 39
        (D) River
        22%
      • 25
        (B) Flop
        14%
      • 5
        (A) Preflop
        3%
      Total: 178 Votes
    • verneer
      verneer
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.08.2009 Posts: 366
      This is something I've been thinking about a bit for the last few weeks:

      What street do you think the average micro stakes player finds the most difficult to play?

      Please vote first before reading any of the comments below :)
  • 32 replies
    • IngridN
      IngridN
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.03.2011 Posts: 12,162
      we want to see your comment guys and why you think what you think!!! :D

    • CallumN
      CallumN
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.01.2012 Posts: 1,141
      Me and a few others had discussed this before. They think the flop is the toughest, which I can understand, as mistakes made on the flop can impact a lot more further down the streets.

      Myself personally im pretty happy with my flop game, as once I have made a action on the flop im 95% sure what im going to do on every turn/river etc.

      The average microstakes player is pretty competent in what flops to cbet and how to respond to raises, This is because it is rare to get raised at the micros so most decisions are clear cut.

      When it comes to the turn I think the average microstakes player makes a ton of mistakes by either not value betting thin enough or taking passive lines/calling too much/not often enough.

      Basically with the turn we often decide if we are playing for stacks or for a small pot and our turn action is going to dictate how the river plays a lot of the time.

      I can imagine if a bad micro stakes player starts of a hand by calling a 3bet OOP with KTo then unless he plays amazing postflop, preflop is going to be his biggest leak

      I should probably add my decision may be a little biased, as once you have played 2-3 million hands you have seen basically every single pre-flop and flop action and are very familiar with the standard lines for each player type and board texture
    • Pokerbeyky
      Pokerbeyky
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.09.2009 Posts: 6
      The smaller the stakes, the worse it gets.
      Usually bad players are welcome for good equity, however there are so many of them, that is nealy impossible to make a profit without a huge amount of Luck. Playing Bingo is less stressful.

      My motto there:

      They never fold,
      They never learn,
      They just get lucky far too often!
    • Atoks
      Atoks
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.06.2008 Posts: 1,395
      Turn is the most problematic street for me. On the flop u get a pretty good idea of where u are and where u want to go with the hand. On the river everything is pretty much settled and not much will change anymore. But the turn is the street that most often throws a spanner in ur weel of planning. It's probably why I'm such a poor cash game player. So yeah ... would love to learn more about turn play!
    • Nivlem
      Nivlem
      Silver
      Joined: 28.05.2008 Posts: 4,862
      I would guess this is the river (at least for HU, I'm quite certain) The pot is biggest here, and you will have to decide if your opponent missed his draws or actually has a value hand and how he sees your hand range as well.

      Since the pot is big, a small mistake can cost a lot more.

      Preflop should be the easiest for sure, with all the starting hand chart advice available you can just play ABC poker here.
    • matel17
      matel17
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.07.2010 Posts: 1,278
      I voted for the turn but really it's difficult to tell.

      Turn cards make me re-evaluate where I stand in the hand, and still have one more street to consider.

      Overall there probably isn't an answer because all streets of all hands contribute to the flow of the game.

      There might be an argument for the river though in that it's the least played so experience playing rivers will always be behind all other streets.
    • Karl0zzz
      Karl0zzz
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.01.2010 Posts: 111
      I'm a microstakes player and i find flop the most difficult street when i'm oop, cuz i don't have any info about how they hit the flop... :f_p:
    • ragney
      ragney
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.08.2010 Posts: 2,417
      Originally posted by Karl0zzz
      I'm a microstakes player and i find flop the most difficult street when i'm oop, cuz i don't have any info about how they hit the flop... :f_p:
      Every street is hard OOP :D
    • NightFrostaSS
      NightFrostaSS
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2008 Posts: 5,255
      To me personally I'd say river (more so in HU than in 6m). To average microstakes 6max guy I'd say turn, tho it mainly gets hard to them because of poor earlier streets play and not having a plan.
    • Ectoz
      Ectoz
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.04.2010 Posts: 135
      I sense a video coming in the next couple of weeks or so.
    • gadget51
      gadget51
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.06.2008 Posts: 5,622
      Easy one, it's preflop at the micros, no contest.

      How many mistakes are made postflop? Loads and loads. Why? because players get into trouble, calling OOP with Axs and hitting Ayy. Limping utg with 68s, calling a raise and hitting 489r. Blah, blah, blah...preflop!

      Most micro players think they can decide preflop wha hand to play because they've 'had experience', or they've 'got a chart', but deciding how to play the same hand preflop, from the same position, versus 4 different tables at the same time? I raised that table so I'll raise those 3 as wel, yes? No!

      Further, the chart says raise so I raise. Oh is that right then!? So, tell me, why did you raise that and preflop Mr X? Erm, er ,er ...it 's good hand. Mmmmm..nice.

      Preflop, that's where it all stems from, that's what makes the flop so tough, do I cbet, do I not, I'm not sure.

      Planning, you need planning. Ask a millisecond before a micro stakes player clicks a button to call/raise/3bet preflop what there plan is if they get called...and then tell me how many can tell you that plan.

      PREFLOP!

      Sigh, rant over. You can shoot me dpown now! :D
    • matel17
      matel17
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.07.2010 Posts: 1,278
      Yes but the question isn't where the biggest mistakes are made.
    • conquistadorrr
      conquistadorrr
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.10.2010 Posts: 71
      For me it's the turn. Especially if my flop bet was just called. Showing weakness means you just gave up the pot and second barreling can get you into even more trouble. The lower the stakes, the worse it gets for me because it can be so difficult for me to read my opponent. One hand you see the guy calling with middle pair, the other hand they have the nuts...

      I have a lot more to learn about post flop game. :f_grin:
    • TwiceT
      TwiceT
      Black
      Joined: 15.07.2007 Posts: 4,796
      depends on stack sizes.


      01- 40 bb stacks - PRE
      40 - 80 bb stacks - F
      80 - 150 bb stacks - T
      150++ bb stacks - R
    • CallumN
      CallumN
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.01.2012 Posts: 1,141
      Originally posted by TwiceT
      depends on stack sizes.


      01- 40 bb stacks - PRE
      40 - 80 bb stacks - F
      80 - 150 bb stacks - T
      150++ bb stacks - R
      I love playing rivers 150bb+ deep. People turn their hands face up so often makes for a lot of fun :)

      Our video with the KJ hand highlights this :P
    • roopopper
      roopopper
      Bronze
      Joined: 31.12.2010 Posts: 4,289
      mmmm tricky for me to say, but as a micro stakes fish, I would say the turn is tricky as I will usually cbet flop and fold to reraise if I have weak hand like top pair(unless I have note on villian to do otherwise).
      The turn becomes tricky for me when I can't decide how much to bet my top pair or im trying to double barrel my cbet. Although saying all this just over the last few weeks I'm becoming more read dependent on opponents and also how the texture of the board is.....which leads me to the river....is he bluffing? Should I look him up with my top pair? oops lost another buy-in!!! :f_biggrin:

      Roo
    • verneer
      verneer
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.08.2009 Posts: 366
      Originally posted by Karl0zzz
      I'm a microstakes player and i find flop the most difficult street when i'm oop, cuz i don't have any info about how they hit the flop... :f_p:
      If you are often finding yourself OOP on the flop, then the problem lies preflop.
    • verneer
      verneer
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.08.2009 Posts: 366
      Originally posted by CallumN
      Originally posted by TwiceT
      depends on stack sizes.


      01- 40 bb stacks - PRE
      40 - 80 bb stacks - F
      80 - 150 bb stacks - T
      150++ bb stacks - R
      I love playing rivers 150bb+ deep. People turn their hands face up so often makes for a lot of fun :)

      Our video with the KJ hand highlights this :P
      If villain has 5x there, what are your thoughts on his river play?
    • DukeXIII
      DukeXIII
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.12.2010 Posts: 173
      I would say that turn is the most difficult to play and here is why.

      1st. On the flop the pot is not that big and a continuation bet or a call doesn't cost too much but by the time turn has come a bet or a call is going to cost you much more cause as we all know the pot increases exponentially. So this time if you want to bet you have to be sure what you are doing cause a value bet will cost you much more.
      When you decide to bet the flop and sth go wrong you can easily fold with not such a big damage. But when you have reached the turn you have to think that you have one more street left so you have to think actually for two streets cause if you do a wrong move here maybe you ll find yourself committed with a mediocre hand and just in a second your hole stack have disappeared.

      2d. On the turn usually you have the most information available and you have to be able to make some fast and as possible accurate deductions. So you have to think all the actions before and decide whether and how you are going to move after.

      3d. Finally deciding or not to c bet on flop or call is not that hard I think when you have grasped the basics. If you know which hands to play from which position and know how to adjust according to table dynamics things usually are not that hard. Know when to c bet also is very crucial here but it s not that hard to learn it and as I said before even if you do mistakes are not going to cost you much.

      My 0,2c :)
    • 1
    • 2