Winrate from the blinds

    • Kyyberi
      Kyyberi
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      I have tried to ask this from good players, but no one seems to know the answer.

      What is concidered a good winrate from the blinds? Like in BB, if you fold all your hands, you lose -100bb/100. So if you play any hands from there, you should lose less than that. But at what point can you be satisfied with the result?

      It takes a big sample to have good information, as some 10K hand samples might have few very good tables where you just make money from every position.

      What does Ribbo's stats say from the blinds?
  • 18 replies
    • Ribbo
      Ribbo
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      If you're not losing money from the blinds then you've found the best table ever. :f_biggrin:
    • TurnitAce
      TurnitAce
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      Originally posted by Ribbo
      If you're not losing money from the blinds then you've found the best table ever. :f_biggrin:
      lol EPIC
    • Kyyberi
      Kyyberi
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      Negative winrate is still a winrate. I would love to see what winrate Ribbo has from the blinds in 6max?
    • Waiboy
      Waiboy
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      Originally posted by Kyyberi
      Negative winrate is still a winrate.
      So what is a negative lose rate then? :f_confused: :f_p:
    • Kyyberi
      Kyyberi
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      Negative loserate is positive winrate. :)

      If it is too hard for you guys, I can ask "what is good loserate from the blinds?".
    • Fagin
      Fagin
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      Originally posted by Kyyberi
      if you fold all your hands, you lose -100bb/100.
      How can this be correct. Surely if I fold all the hands dealt to me on a 9 seater table then over 99 hands I will lose 11bb and 11sb making a loss of -16.5bb/99 (the 100th hand I will be on the bb again maling the loss -17.5bb/100) ???

      How do you get to a loss of -100bb/100 unless you pay a bb every hand and fold every hand ? Even if you are just counting the hands you play in the blinds then half of them are sb hands so the loss is -75bb/100 !!
    • Kyyberi
      Kyyberi
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      Please quote the whole sentence. I am talking there about the hands played from big blind.

      Now this thread has 6 replies, but no one has even tried to answer my question. And I don't think that the question is hard to understand.

      One good player said that he loses about -35bb/100 from big blind. Is that expected result, great result or poor result?
    • Fagin
      Fagin
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      Sorry for misunderstanding you earlier.

      I have filtered the 5.5K hands I have played this year at NL2 for those where I posted a bb. The surprising result is that I show a profit of 43.63BB/100 over 758 hands.

      A very small sample size of course but just thought I would try to make up for my earlier gaff.

      The above is better than my overall win rate on NL2 which is only 30BB/100 so maybe I should only play the bb!

      Cheers
    • Wriggers
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      I'm also interested in this, as over my sample (Very small but still) i'm losing a lot more in PLO from the BB than I was in NLHE. My winrate from the BB in NLHE was ~-38bb/100, whilst my PLO BB winrate is over -50bb/100.

      This could be a number of things, small sample size and variance, me being a worse player in PLO than NLHE, or the fact you lose more in the BB in PLO because you don't want to play OOP if at all possible, and the fact that no one folds to 3bets IP so you can't resteal as easily.
    • fruktpuff
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      Originally posted by Kyyberi
      Please quote the whole sentence. I am talking there about the hands played from big blind.

      Now this thread has 6 replies, but no one has even tried to answer my question. And I don't think that the question is hard to understand.

      One good player said that he loses about -35bb/100 from big blind. Is that expected result, great result or poor result?
      TT answered this in his AMA thread the other day with an opinion, I believe. Let me find it for you and edit his reply in.

      Edit: That question was from you, you've almost certainly read his reply already. :)

      Edit2: Regardless, for others to see:

      Originally posted by TwiceT
      Originally posted by Kyyberi
      In PLO blinds, what is concidered a good winrate? I mean, you lose -100bb/100 on big blind if you fold it always. How much you should reduce your losses, if you are a good player?

      Or should you even make a small profit from blinds?
      In sh games you can never make a profit in the blinds imo.

      Good lose rate is probably -17.5/-35, but I dont have any evidence that that is rly a good losing rate. Just with the games I crushed the most, that has been my losing rate from SB/BB.
    • Kyyberi
      Kyyberi
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      Small sample sizes are... well, small. I have about 2K hands on both blinds (12K hands total) at my HEM, and it shows that BB is marginally positive and SB is -150bb/100. So that's why you need a bigger sample size :)

      Has anyone ever seen any articles or posts about blind winrates? Seems amazing that no one has ever done any research.
    • Waiboy
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      In the nicest possible way, does it really matter? I'm not sure you'll get any definitive answer, and besides, even if you do, it does it really help anyway? What does it mean if you lose 10bb/100 more than an "acceptable" average? You defend too often or too seldom? You're too aggressive or too passive?

      As always it comes down to how you're playing in specific situations v various opponents, and that is just a hand analysis thing. IMHO you're just freaked out by the difference when a weeks grinding could significantly alter those results.

      I'm off to consider whether I should refer to my b/e rate as a non negative lose rate or a non positive win rate, or vice versa.
    • Kyyberi
      Kyyberi
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      Originally posted by Waiboy
      In the nicest possible way, does it really matter?
      I think it does. I have been wondering this for a looong time, it isn't that I have freaked out as my blind winrates are this and that now.

      It's like if someone asks "what kind of winrate can good player make in plo10?". You can answer "it doesn't matter", but in my opinion it can be answered.

      Let's say my winrate from blind (ongame, even blinds) is -70bb/100. So I am making more money that I would if I folded all my blinds. And as I look my hands and people analyze them, I have played pretty well in those. Good. But can it be better? Again, let's say I meet a player that makes -30bb/100 from blinds. Now he does something that I am not. So I can definitely learn blind playing from him.

      Hand analyzing is a great way to know how you played in those hands. But if I fold type X hands from blinds (as I think they should be folded) I won't even analyze hands with those type of hole cards. While it might be very profitable to play them, I just didn't know that. That was just an example, I have no idea what type of hand that might be. :)

      And even with hand analyzing, it is super hard to estimate if it's +EV to call oop certain type of hands. And to get reliable data, one would need a BIG database. It's a lot easier in holdem, where you have just few type of starting hands. Like if you want to know is it profitable to call small pocket pairs oop, you won't need a million hand database to do that.

      If we assume that TT's winrates are good player's rates, then we have something we can compare to our own stats. So if I am losing -75bb/100 from big blind, I know that there is a lot that I can do to improve my game there (of course I have to look sample size and what has happened in those hands etc.).

      I am suprised that this thing is such a mystery. TT is the only player that has said his winrates. I might ask the same thing in Finnish poker forum, there are a lot of winning midstakes regulars. Will let you know what they say. :)
    • patszerdonk
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      Originally posted by Kyyberi
      I have tried to ask this from good players, but no one seems to know the answer.

      What is concidered a good winrate from the blinds? Like in BB, if you fold all your hands, you lose -100bb/100. So if you play any hands from there, you should lose less than that. But at what point can you be satisfied with the result?

      It takes a big sample to have good information, as some 10K hand samples might have few very good tables where you just make money from every position.

      What does Ribbo's stats say from the blinds?
      I think it's impossible to answer. Even for unlimited sample, it depend on your playing style (risk taker or not, multitable, etc). And I think we have to compare it with overall winrate from all position.
    • Kyyberi
      Kyyberi
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      Originally posted by patszerdonk
      And I think we have to compare it with overall winrate from all position.
      Why? If we assume that winning player has winrate of 5-10bb/100 overall, it is clear that most of the winnings should come from position.

      Why are people afraid to post their stats?
    • Waiboy
      Waiboy
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      Originally posted by Kyyberi
      Originally posted by patszerdonk
      And I think we have to compare it with overall winrate from all position.
      Why? If we assume that winning player has winrate of 5-10bb/100 overall, it is clear that most of the winnings should come from position.

      Why are people afraid to post their stats?
      Would you agree that you can be a solid winning player playing various styles in PLO - some more passive, some more aggressive?

      If you agree to that, then you'd have to concede that there will likely be a variety of styles for playing from the blinds, I guess directly related to how those players play post flop OOP given their pre flop style. In which case there are likely to be a range of lose rates out of the blinds.

      I'm no expert, LDO, but I think that sounds reasonable.

      What might be of value would be a note of the lose rate out of the blinds for a solid winning player, and a bit of a description about their playing style in general, and their style playing out of the blinds.

      Any takers?
    • Kyyberi
      Kyyberi
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      Of course you can be a winner with different styles. And what I think is that you shouldn't have any specific "style". You should adapt to your opponents. Every opponent has it's weaknesses, and you should exploit them as good as you can. Sometimes you need to be more aggressive, sometimes more passive, sometimes very straightforward, sometimes little tricky etc.

      But overall, I would like to have some sort of guideline what is "good" winrate from the blinds. If I am looking my hem stats and trying to find leaks, and I see that I am losing -60bb from the big blind, is that good or bad?

      TwiceT was kind enough to give his numbers. One finnish midstakes regular gave his numbers, which are -30/-24. So now we have whooping sample size of 2 and we can say that if you lose less than -50bb/100 on big blind it is good.

      What do we do with this number? If you have big sample size, and you lose more than that on blinds, you might want to rail someone who has better winrate to see what he does on blinds. And then maybe improve your own game.
    • Jim9137
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      Originally posted by Fagin
      I have filtered the 5.5K hands I have played this year at NL2 for those where I posted a bb. The surprising result is that I show a profit of 43.63BB/100 over 758 hands.
      When I originally started out PLO, I made all my profit from the blinds and lost the greatest amount from the button. I am not sure what the cause of this was, but variance, calliing too much from the blinds and inability to take advantage of the position or simple passivity probably were contributors.