[NL2-NL10] NL10: AQo <> UTG or, turn minraise

    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      IPoker, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

      Hero (CO): $10 (100 bb)
      BTN: $23.99 (239.9 bb)
      SB: $15.50 (155 bb)
      BB: $10 (100 bb)
      UTG: $25.22 (252.2 bb)
      MP: $10 (100 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is CO with Q A
      UTG raises to $0.35, MP folds, Hero calls $0.35, 3 folds

      Flop: ($0.85) 2 Q T (2 players)
      UTG bets $0.63, Hero calls $0.63

      Turn: ($2.11) A (2 players)
      UTG bets $1.58, Hero raises to $3.16, UTG calls $1.58

      River: ($8.43) A (2 players)
      UTG checks, Hero bets $5.86 and is all-in, UTG calls $5.86

      Results: $20.15 pot ($1.34 rake)
      Final Board: 2 Q T A A
      Hero mucked Q A and won $18.81 ($8.81 net)
      UTG showed 7 8 and lost (-$10 net)

      Opponent's stats: VP/PFR/AF/WTS/hands 26/19/2.0/50/79
      Nr. of tables: 1-2

      Quite a problematic hand for me.
      Preflop: From the first glance it would not seem that this is the kind of opponent that could call a 3bet with a weaker hand OOP, even less so from UTG, so I went for a call to keep weaker aces and hands in general in the pot.
      Flop: I lack information on him so I can't really tell that he would continue playing with a draw if I raised so I chose the safe way of not possibly isolating myself against a stronger range. I also do not have information on his opening range from UTG (e.i. does it include many SCs?), so I do not expect my opponent to be on a draw too often. Although it is possible, of course.
      Turn: Now this is the problem spot. This is where I probably should have raised at least just a little more than I did. At first I thought that by raising this little I give my opponent more room to bluff/semi-bluff me, should he consider such an option because of the stack sizes. The problem here really is raise-sizing – I can't really choose many different raise sizes that would not commit me in a way that would be so obvious to my opponent that he could surely tell that he has no fold equity against me. It's basically either a small raise or a push. When I do push, however, the only hands that would call and which I have beaten could be such hands as QT, AT, AK AJ. Ok, it does not seem too bad after all. The question: is a small raise a mistake? I mean, I don't exactly seem to be protecting against flushdraws too well.
      River: standard
  • 12 replies
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Hello Avatars91,

      Preflop: You have too many opponents behind you and who could easily be loose. So therefore I don't really like that Call here while AQo ain't a good hand to play multiway pot. Unless you are really aware what you are doing preflop & postflop.

      As played
      Postflop: Well, the min-raise isn't good either. :) You are giving perfect odds for FD is he has any there, so rather just make a normal raise at least $4-5, so then he wouldn't have the odds for a call. :)

      Best Regards.
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      Preflop: You have too many opponents behind you and who could easily be loose. So therefore I don't really like that Call here while AQo ain't a good hand to play multiway pot. Unless you are really aware what you are doing preflop & postflop.


      I probably should have mentioned that all the other players are regulars at this table. Does that change anything?

      Is it really that bad to play in a multiway pot? Even though I can get overcalled from time to time, it should not happen on a regular basis and usually not by more than 1 additional player. By 3betting I basically am just simply bluffing (Don't see him calling us OOP with worse).

      I swear I saw a video or an article where a coach cold called AKo or AQo on the BU againt an MP or + a fish in the BB. He said that he did it to keep MP's weaker aces in as well as get the fish to call with a superweak range.
    • MancaMulas
      MancaMulas
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.03.2009 Posts: 4,491
      being in position, I definitely flat call there with AQo and try to play for pot control.

      calling the flop is fine, I think the only worse hand that continues after a raise is maybe KQ.

      on the turn you have to raise/broke for protection. you have $9 behind, I would make it around $4.50, which gives him odds around 2.5:1
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      I probably should have mentioned that all the other players are regulars at this table. Does that change anything?

      What about squeeze then? They could squeeze there if they are squeeze happy. :)

      Is it really that bad to play in a multiway pot? Even though I can get overcalled from time to time, it should not happen on a regular basis and usually not by more than 1 additional player. By 3betting I basically am just simply bluffing (Don't see him calling us OOP with worse).

      People just over-value their TP type of hands in those spots. :) That's the problem for being in multiway pot and most likely in bigger pot where you have to pay a lot more to hero-call with TP.

      I swear I saw a video or an article where a coach cold called AKo or AQo on the BU againt an MP or + a fish in the BB. He said that he did it to keep MP's weaker aces in as well as get the fish to call with a superweak range.

      Yes, it's fine to Call but are you coach? Are you able to play postflop profitable? Do you know how to play postflop against him? How or when do you plan to fight back? Or you just calling and hoping that you will hit something?
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      What about squeeze then? They could squeeze there if they are squeeze happy.


      I just checked their stats and their average squeeze % is really not that high.

      People just over-value their TP type of hands in those spots. That's the problem for being in multiway pot and most likely in bigger pot where you have to pay a lot more to hero-call with TP.


      When I hit TP my Nr. 1 priority is pot control. Given that is it really possible for me to overplay my TP? I can even find a fold postflop if the opponent is usually extremely passive and suddenly starts 3-barreling.

      Yes, it's fine to Call but are you coach? Are you able to play postflop profitable? Do you know how to play postflop against him? How or when do you plan to fight back? Or you just calling and hoping that you will hit something?


      I understand my skills are inferior to theirs but really, how am I ever going to reach their level if I am not even trying? If a coach evaluates a spot as a situation where cold calling is more profitable than 3betting then obviously I should strive to reach a level where I too can make this play, hence it is the more profitable play. Yes, I will make mistakes but I will analyze them, post them here aso. This is how I will improve. I mean, there don't seem to be any articles on this here on PS, how else am I going to improve in this aspect?
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      I understand my skills are inferior to theirs but really, how am I ever going to reach their level if I am not even trying? If a coach evaluates a spot as a situation where cold calling is more profitable than 3betting then obviously I should strive to reach a level where I too can make this play, hence it is the more profitable play. Yes, I will make mistakes but I will analyze them, post them here aso. This is how I will improve. I mean, there don't seem to be any articles on this here on PS, how else am I going to improve in this aspect?

      Because it would need many articles to write exact play against specific opponents, specific boards, specific hands and etc. It's nothing that you can just take together with few words.

      That's true that you can also play like that by flatting. But before doing that myself I would try to get to know my play in first place, do I even play profitable with those hands even in raised pots?

      For example:
      a) Go take a look on AQo/AQs hands in your HEM -> Do you play them profitable in raised pot?
      b) Go take a look on 3betting with them, do you play profitable?
      c) Take a look at cold calling with them, do you play profitable?

      According to that I would start adjusting, if you don't even play profitable with just raising first in or 3betting with those hands profitable do you think you would play them profitable by cold calling?
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      That's true that you can also play like that by flatting. But before doing that myself I would try to get to know my play in first place, do I even play profitable with those hands even in raised pots? For example: a) Go take a look on AQo/AQs hands in your HEM -> Do you play them profitable in raised pot? b) Go take a look on 3betting with them, do you play profitable? c) Take a look at cold calling with them, do you play profitable?


      According to my database I play them profitably both when I openraise them and both when I 3bet them. I am not able to find a filter in HEM2 that would show how profitable I am when cold calling with these hands, however.

      Either way, these criteria are met. Why could I not be able to cold call with them?

      And anyway, if it is profitable to cold call with them provided one is competent enough to do that, why are you stating that cold calling is an absolute no-no? It is difficult, I get it, but sooner or later I will have to do it anyway. The way you state it makes me even question if one can ever cold call them with people yet to act.. At least according to you it would seem that there is no such a situation. This has made me really confused. I want to play profitably but I want to improve as well. So what should I do? Never cold call with these hands? Fold them?
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Either way, these criteria are met. Why could I not be able to cold call with them?

      If they are profitable then you shouldn't worry about it and can proceed.

      So what should I do? Never cold call with these hands? Fold them?

      I stated already the criteria for when to play with them and when not. Obviously if you don't play in unopened pots which you raise profitable and neither you don't play very profitable with 3betting then why should you switch to cold calling? That's my point, not that you can't play it profitable. If you still didn't get it then first what you learn in poker is option a) which I pointed out then we go to b) and then to c).
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      So basically the advice not to cold call with such hands preflop applies to beginners who are not able to play the hand profitably even when openraising and 3betting? On its own it is a good way to play the hand under certain conditions?
    • sausage646
      sausage646
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.03.2010 Posts: 567
      Originally posted by veriz
      Yes, it's fine to Call but are you coach?
      conclusion: only coaches play AQo multiway. :coolface:

      but the biggest question still not answered well are you a coach?°

      a) if yes, proceed whit the hand
      b) if not, standard fold
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by Avatars91
      So basically the advice not to cold call with such hands preflop applies to beginners who are not able to play the hand profitably even when openraising and 3betting? On its own it is a good way to play the hand under certain conditions?
      Yep, exactly. That's what we trying to avoid on those limits. :) If you feel your postflop skill be good enough, you knowing the opponent then obviously flatting and cold calling this way can still be profitable, especially when keeping weaker Ax hands in the play.
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      Yep, exactly. That's what we trying to avoid on those limits. If you feel your postflop skill be good enough, you knowing the opponent then obviously flatting and cold calling this way can still be profitable, especially when keeping weaker Ax hands in the play.


      Thank you! This is exactly what I wanted to hear!