[NL2-NL10] NL10: KJs IP against check-raise dry flop

    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      IPoker, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 5 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

      Hero (MP): $19.73 (197.3 bb)
      CO: $12.68 (126.8 bb)
      BTN: $10.56 (105.6 bb)
      SB: $9.60 (96 bb)
      BB: $10 (100 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is MP with J K
      Hero raises to $0.30, 3 folds, BB calls $0.20

      Flop: ($0.65) 6 9 T (2 players)
      BB checks, Hero bets $0.40, BB raises to $1.20, Hero calls $0.80

      Turn: ($3.05) Q (2 players)
      BB bets $2.10, Hero calls $2.10

      River: ($7.25) A (2 players)
      BB checks, Hero bets $16.13 and is all-in, BB folds

      Results: $7.25 pot ($0.48 rake)
      Final Board: 6 9 T Q A
      Hero mucked J K and won $6.77 ($3.17 net)
      BB mucked and lost (-$3.60 net)

      Opponent's stats: VP/PFR/AF/Check-raise flop/WTS/hands
      14/12/2.5/50(2)/24/247

      The range I put my opponent on is small-medium PPs + AJ+ +KQ maybe.

      Flop: given my opponent's potential range there, is my play not a bit too fancy here? It certainly looks dubious, but I have quite a few outs up my sleeve and a check-raise on such a board is in my opinion more often a bluff than not (until I see my opponent doing it with a monster/medium made hand). The check-raise is not that big either so the odds are great. I am IP and if my opponent bluffed, he is quite likely to play ch/f on the turn.
  • 11 replies
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Hello Avatars91,

      You don't get the implied odds there to Call and often times most likely going to put yourself into trouble when hitting the overcard. Bet/Fold the flop.

      Best Regards.
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      1) So generally fancy plays like these with the aim of finding out opponents' reaction /tendencies, e.i. getting reads on them in certain spots (3bet pots, check-raises aso.) are not recommended?

      2) If I had stats that would state that my opponent check-raises very very often, what should my plan on such a board on the flop be? Can I bet/call and see how he reacts on the turn, or is checking behind on the flop the superior option?
    • MancaMulas
      MancaMulas
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.03.2009 Posts: 4,494
      It's not a dry flop, it's a drawy flop. many draws are possible... and calling that raise is very spewy imo.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      1) So generally fancy plays like these with the aim of finding out opponents' reaction /tendencies, e.i. getting reads on them in certain spots (3bet pots, check-raises aso.) are not recommended?

      Do that with made hand? :)

      2) If I had stats that would state that my opponent check-raises very very often, what should my plan on such a board on the flop be? Can I bet/call and see how he reacts on the turn, or is checking behind on the flop the superior option?

      Then would practically depend on the opponents WTSD/W$SD and how good you are postflop. Either you have enough of reads and assumptions on him and of course stats. Against some we might float in that spot cause they are giving up very often on turn.
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      Do that with made hand?

      By a made hand do you mean a hand such as top pair and better? Because if you are talking about medium made hands as well, I think that this hand is not too far from being a good candidate for a call. I mean, we have a GS + 2 overs (probably some need to be discounted).

      Then would practically depend on the opponents WTSD/W$SD and how good you are postflop. Either you have enough of reads and assumptions on him and of course stats. Against some we might float in that spot cause they are giving up very often on turn. MancaMulas


      So basically I should float only if I already have a read that villain gives up on turn very often? Doing so without such a read in order to get a read would be too spewy?
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      By a made hand do you mean a hand such as top pair and better? Because if you are talking about medium made hands as well, I think that this hand is not too far from being a good candidate for a call. I mean, we have a GS + 2 overs (probably some need to be discounted).

      Yes, rather with at least OESD with you will even get the implied odds or a pair which also has showdown value.

      2 overs, as I said you will never be sure how good your 2-overs are here while any J could give him a straight and the same goes for K, he could have QJ. :)

      So basically I should float only if I already have a read that villain gives up on turn very often? Doing so without such a read in order to get a read would be too spewy?

      Yes, please read above what I wrote. :) How else do you plan to play the hand profitable then?
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      Yes, please read above what I wrote. How else do you plan to play the hand profitable then?


      Now here I will say something that characterizes my game a lot – this particular play, just as quite a few of other plays that I make during a session, is a play that given certain conditions should be +EV. The truth is that in this situation, just as in many others (this might be a huge leak), I lack all the information to assess the opponent as either suitable or not for such a play.
      In this particular situation I am attempting a float. I do not know if my opponent check/raises flop, check/folds turn often, so basically I am guessing. The reason I do this is to get a read on him – that way I will be able to adapt to him in future. One could say that I am "buying" information.

      Quite often in videos you can hear coaches say "ok now I'm gonna 3bet this guy to see how he reacts". They do not know if their 3bet is +EV against this opponent or not so they force their opponent to give away information. Why is my approach so different?

      The question I would like to ask – is the price in your opinion really worth it?
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Quite often in videos you can hear coaches say "ok now I'm gonna 3bet this guy to see how he reacts". They do not know if their 3bet is +EV against this opponent or not so they force their opponent to give away information. Why is my approach so different?

      Doubt that 3betting would be profitable in that kind of spot on the flop. :D At the best we could consider floating with reads and that's it. 3betting would never be +EV unless you really have some great reads.

      The question I would like to ask – is the price in your opinion really worth it?

      Which price are we talking about? The 3bet? As I said, 3betting is out of question here without good stats/reads.

      For example take a look -> Bet/Call Flop with the filters and see how you doing in those spots. :)
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      quote: Quite often in videos you can hear coaches say "ok now I'm gonna 3bet this guy to see how he reacts". They do not know if their 3bet is +EV against this opponent or not so they force their opponent to give away information. Why is my approach so different? Doubt that 3betting would be profitable in that kind of spot on the flop. At the best we could consider floating with reads and that's it. 3betting would never be +EV unless you really have some great reads.


      Lol, I am not talking about 3betting the flop. I am talking about my approach in this situation and many others – make a move in order to get information on the opponent's tendencies. Is it a bad way to gain information that I could use later?
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Lol, I am not talking about 3betting the flop. I am talking about my approach in this situation and many others – make a move in order to get information on the opponent's tendencies. Is it a bad way to gain information that I could use later?

      Then go back and I answered this one already, why not do that with made hand?
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      Ok, thanks!