Post HH's of Difficult Turn Spots

    • verneer
      verneer
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.08.2009 Posts: 366
      Most beginning/intermediate players have the most trouble playing the turn. I would like to start a thread dedicated to hand histories in situations where you play the turn. I find that examining a specific situation in detail is very helpful.

      A few stipulations:

      1. Your beginning stack size must be between 80 - 125 BB's.
      2. It has to be a single-raised pot or limped pot (no three-bets).

      So in Holdem Manager, run a filter which has the following:

      VPIP = True
      Three-Bet = False
      Faced Three-Bet = False
      Saw Turn = True

      Then find hands that you had trouble with.
  • 32 replies
    • Aruniux
      Aruniux
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.04.2011 Posts: 207
      2.5$ 180man turbo PokerStars
      PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 2.5 Tournament, 25/50 Blinds (9 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

      saw flop | saw showdown

      Button (t6060)
      SB (t3430)
      BB (t5415)
      UTG (t1490)
      UTG+1 (t1620)
      Hero (MP1) (t1425)
      MP2 (t1445)
      MP3 (t2020)
      CO (t35)

      Hero's M: 19.00

      Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K, K
      2 folds, Hero bets t150, 2 folds, CO calls t35 (All-In), 2 folds, BB calls t100

      Flop: (t360) 4, 8, 5 (3 players, 1 all-in)
      BB checks, Hero bets t226, BB calls t226

      Turn: (t812) A (3 players, 1 all-in)
      BB checks, Hero checks

      River: (t812) 6 (3 players, 1 all-in)
      BB bets t4850, Hero folds

      Total pot: t812

      Results:
      BB had 3, 2 (straight, six high).
      CO had Q, Q (one pair, Queens).
      Outcome: BB won t812
    • THESHade
      THESHade
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.03.2010 Posts: 5,418
      Limits?
    • verneer
      verneer
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.08.2009 Posts: 366
      Originally posted by THESHade
      Limits?
      100NL and below sounds good. Also, limiting it to cash games is probably best since the dynamics of playing in a tournament are very different than playing cash.
    • roopopper
      roopopper
      Bronze
      Joined: 31.12.2010 Posts: 4,289
      Originally posted by Aruniux
      2.5$ 180man turbo PokerStars
      PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 2.5 Tournament, 25/50 Blinds (9 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

      saw flop | saw showdown

      Button (t6060)
      SB (t3430)
      BB (t5415)
      UTG (t1490)
      UTG+1 (t1620)
      Hero (MP1) (t1425)
      MP2 (t1445)
      MP3 (t2020)
      CO (t35)

      Hero's M: 19.00

      Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K, K
      2 folds, Hero bets t150, 2 folds, CO calls t35 (All-In), 2 folds, BB calls t100

      Flop: (t360) 4, 8, 5 (3 players, 1 all-in)
      BB checks, Hero bets t226, BB calls t226

      Turn: (t812) A (3 players, 1 all-in)
      BB checks, Hero checks

      River: (t812) 6 (3 players, 1 all-in)
      BB bets t4850, Hero folds

      Total pot: t812

      Results:
      BB had 3, 2 (straight, six high).
      CO had Q, Q (one pair, Queens).
      Outcome: BB won t812
      Is this not 28 big blinds? Dont think this hand would count would it?

      whoops just noticed post above!!! :facepalm:
    • Chargemore
      Chargemore
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.02.2012 Posts: 18
      Villian is 52/27 from 97 hands, 33% fold to cbet (5/15), 1.7 agg

      Grabbed by Holdem Manager
      NL Holdem $0.10(BB) Replayer
      SB ($29.86)
      BB ($12.55)
      UTG ($10.80)
      CO ($28.59)
      Hero ($10.43)

      BB antes $0.02
      UTG antes $0.02
      CO antes $0.02
      Hero antes $0.02
      SB antes $0.02

      Dealt to Hero Q:diamond: T:diamond:

      fold, CO calls $0.10, Hero raises to $0.40, fold, fold, CO calls $0.30

      FLOP ($1.05) 6:heart: 4:diamond: A:diamond:

      CO checks, Hero bets $0.60, CO calls $0.60

      TURN ($2.25) 6:heart: 4:diamond: A:diamond: 3:club:

      CO checks, Hero bets $1.50, CO raises to $4.30, Hero folds

      CO wins $5


      This is a hand representative of a situation I find myself in a lot when playing draws. Is it better to check back the turn here? What about if the 6:heart: in the hand above was 10:heart: ? what about if the high card was K:diamond: instead of an ace?

      For betting: I don't really like checking back and betting any diamond river, as it feels like level one (playing to hit my hand type poker), and also I think it's harder to get more money in after the flush hits vs a lot of villains. I also think very low fold to Cbet stats present good spots to double barrel with equity (but not as a complete bluff).

      For checking: I can't call this turn raise, and I hate being raised off a hand that has decent equity. If he does have an ace, there is no raise on the river that he won't call, so maybe I can just wait and make money when I hit. Also while I can't really pin a range on someone with these stats, the turn card does not seem good to barrel. Are there any non diamond turn scare cards we would be happier firing on?
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      Cbetting there with your FD is probably fine because he still has random Kx, Qx and connectors that missed the board which fold and you pick up the dead money.

      On the turn though you should be inclined to check imo. When he calls the flop he has showdown value. What do fish not fold? A hand. Apart from that, the turns hits his range a decent amount and completely misses yours thus making his range there stronger and yours weaker. If his range is now stronger it means you have less folding equity.

      Having said this, you still have good implied odds for when you make your hand because he won't fold his Ax or medium pair after you show weakness on the turn.

      Personally, I wouldn't bluff too many turns against such an opponent because there's not enough folding equity. Instead, I would consider value betting thinly the weaker made hands in my range.

      Considering your idea to "barrel with equity", what is your plan for the river? What do you expect to make him fold with your barrel on the turn? If you assume he calls medium pairs on that turn your bet is horrible unless you follow it up with a river bet.
    • roopopper
      roopopper
      Bronze
      Joined: 31.12.2010 Posts: 4,289
      I know we are talking about the turn here, but with villian having such a wide calling range, would it not have been better to just check the flop, then if he fires a bet on the turn it would be maybe cheaper to see the river and give you an extra card to hit your flush? Does a player with those kind of stats ever take notice of a c-bet?
      please feel free to critique my thinking here i'm a fish and need all the help I can get :)

      Roo
    • InsanityOnFire
      InsanityOnFire
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.01.2011 Posts: 120
      I pretty much agree with emanuel on that hand. Not enough foldequity to barrel turn.
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      He does fold 33% to cbets so he doesn't call all hands. He could well fold Kx, QJ, QT or hands that have good equity like 89. Basically, our cbet is to make him fold his air because his air has good equity vs us. If he doesn't fold he probably doesn't have air and it's best to proceed with caution. Just my 2 cents...
    • Chargemore
      Chargemore
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.02.2012 Posts: 18
      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      Considering your idea to "barrel with equity", what is your plan for the river? What do you expect to make him fold with your barrel on the turn? If you assume he calls medium pairs on that turn your bet is horrible unless you follow it up with a river bet.
      I am obviously never triple barrelling a fish with queen high if the river bricks, I am betting when the flush completes and checking back everything else including queen rivers.

      Although I do agree in hindsight I should have checked in this particular spot the main reason for my bet on the turn in this hand was because of his stats. Does someone raising 27% of hands limp an ace or medium PPs? He also folds to Cbet a very low amount, so I was thinking there are lots of hands like 78, 79, 95 in his range as well as flush draws that he peels the flop with, I don't give him credit for a pair just because he called on the flop.

      Can you think of a similar spot, or change the board in this hand, where you would double barrel against a fish, or are you always checking back the turn with draws?

      Originally posted by roopopper
      I know we are talking about the turn here, but with villian having such a wide calling range, would it not have been better to just check the flop, then if he fires a bet on the turn it would be maybe cheaper to see the river and give you an extra card to hit your flush? Does a player with those kind of stats ever take notice of a c-bet?
      I cbet here because A high flops are great to cbet on, 1/3 of the time I take the pot down with Q high which I am not unhappy with as a result, and I want to be the aggressor. If I had checked back this turn then I would get to see all five cards for one bet on the flop where I choose the size, where as if I check flop and villain pots the turn I don't get to see the river, or I get to see it on his terms.

      Plus I don't like only checking and calling when I am drawing and then betting when I make a hand. I think that is very "level one poker" and intuitively easy to read, even for fish.
    • roopopper
      roopopper
      Bronze
      Joined: 31.12.2010 Posts: 4,289
      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      He does fold 33% to cbets so he doesn't call all hands. He could well fold Kx, QJ, QT or hands that have good equity like 89. Basically, our cbet is to make him fold his air because his air has good equity vs us. If he doesn't fold he probably doesn't have air and it's best to proceed with caution. Just my 2 cents...
      Thanks Emanuel
      Sometimes I just need a little help to see things more clearly, having thought a bit more about this hand I can see if the flop was checked then it could also make it glaringly obvious im chasing a flush and definatley dont have top pair as its already out there.

      Thanks
    • roopopper
      roopopper
      Bronze
      Joined: 31.12.2010 Posts: 4,289
      Originally posted by Chargemore


      Originally posted by roopopper
      I know we are talking about the turn here, but with villian having such a wide calling range, would it not have been better to just check the flop, then if he fires a bet on the turn it would be maybe cheaper to see the river and give you an extra card to hit your flush? Does a player with those kind of stats ever take notice of a c-bet?
      I cbet here because A high flops are great to cbet on, 1/3 of the time I take the pot down with Q high which I am not unhappy with as a result, and I want to be the aggressor. If I had checked back this turn then I would get to see all five cards for one bet on the flop where I choose the size, where as if I check flop and villain pots the turn I don't get to see the river, or I get to see it on his terms.

      Plus I don't like only checking and calling when I am drawing and then betting when I make a hand. I think that is very "level one poker" and intuitively easy to read, even for fish.
      Thanks chargemore,
      I am a level 1 player so all feedback on my thinking is greatly appreciated :f_thumbsup:
    • lanopano
      lanopano
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.01.2012 Posts: 38
      Originally posted by Chargemore

      Can you think of a similar spot, or change the board in this hand, where you would double barrel against a fish, or are you always checking back the turn with draws?

      I wouldn't double barrel because of the A on the flop. I think they would fold a large amount of the time without an A in their hand to a flop cbet. They're thinking "Crap he hit the Ace... I fold". So I'd say the call is stronger than a usual cbet call because the A is a scare card to any non-Ax hand of the fish.
      I could see a turn cbet when our equity improves OTT (a K or J). But even then I'm inclined to take a free card though.

      On the other hand, if the A hits ott instead of the flop I prolly turn cbet 100%. For example on a 649A board.
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      Originally posted by Chargemore
      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      Considering your idea to "barrel with equity", what is your plan for the river? What do you expect to make him fold with your barrel on the turn? If you assume he calls medium pairs on that turn your bet is horrible unless you follow it up with a river bet.
      I am obviously never triple barrelling a fish with queen high if the river bricks, I am betting when the flush completes and checking back everything else including queen rivers.

      Although I do agree in hindsight I should have checked in this particular spot the main reason for my bet on the turn in this hand was because of his stats. Does someone raising 27% of hands limp an ace or medium PPs? He also folds to Cbet a very low amount, so I was thinking there are lots of hands like 78, 79, 95 in his range as well as flush draws that he peels the flop with, I don't give him credit for a pair just because he called on the flop.

      Can you think of a similar spot, or change the board in this hand, where you would double barrel against a fish, or are you always checking back the turn with draws?
      I don't think he peels 79 or 95. I agree he peels other FDs, OESD and gutters. The thing is, you are ahead of those hands unless he has the K :diamond: FD so you don't acheive that much by betting the turn. Against that range you have good implied odds if he makes second best hand and you have very good showdown value currently. Only reason to bet is to make him fold medium pairs which in my experience they have trouble doing nowadays to just 2 bets.

      I would however bet a hand like JJ there because now I want him to call once more with his draws and pair + draw because on the river he will now fold unimproved and if he improves I am dead.


      Here is a rough example imo:

      How JJ does vs his range here. If he has some more draws it's a clear vbet. As it is it's very thin of course. I assume he c/r the flop with any 2pair+ hand btw.


      Board: A:diamond: 4:diamond: 6:heart:  3:club:
             Equity     Win     Tie
      MP2    48.88%  48.88%   0.00% { JhJs }
      MP3    51.12%  51.12%   0.00% { 99-77, 55, A7s-A2s, K6s, 85s+, 75s+, 65s, 53s+, Qd8d, Jd8d, Qd7d, Jd7d, Td7d, Qd6d, Jd6d, Td6d, Kd5d, Qd5d, Jd5d, Td5d, Qd4d, Jd4d, Kd3d, A8o-A2o, K6o, 86o+, 75o+, 65o, 53o+ }


      If you change your hand to Q :diamond: T :diamond: you still have very good equity but now you need him to fold some of his midpair type hands in order to bet. If you know he does you can happily bluff and reevaluate if you get raised. If you think he doesn't fold them you have to decide between checking and betting both turn and river. The advantage of checking in this specific spot is of implied odds since the turn improved his range greatly. The obvious OESD got there, his pairs now have redraws or he turned 2 pair so all you can hope he folds that beats you and you do bad against is a K high FD.



      Board: A:diamond: 4:diamond: 6:heart:  3:club:
             Equity     Win     Tie
      MP2    32.27%  32.27%   0.00% { QdTd }
      MP3    67.73%  67.73%   0.00% { 99-77, 55, A7s-A2s, K6s, 85s+, 75s+, 65s, 53s+, Qd8d, Jd8d, Qd7d, Jd7d, Td7d, Qd6d, Jd6d, Td6d, Kd5d, Qd5d, Jd5d, Td5d, Qd4d, Jd4d, Kd3d, A8o-A2o, K6o, 86o+, 75o+, 65o, 53o+ }
    • M1rCea
      M1rCea
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.07.2010 Posts: 936
      IPoker, $0.10/$0.20 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 10 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

      UTG+1: $23.31 (116.5 bb)
      UTG+2: $58.75 (293.8 bb)
      Hero (MP1): $18.90 (94.5 bb)
      MP2: $14.69 (73.4 bb)
      MP3: $13.78 (68.9 bb)
      CO: $19.20 (96 bb)
      BTN: $33.11 (165.5 bb)
      SB: $20 (100 bb)
      BB: $9.61 (48.1 bb)
      UTG: $29.10 (145.5 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 8 9
      UTG folds, UTG+1 raises to $0.60, UTG+2 calls $0.60, Hero calls $0.60, MP2 folds, MP3 calls $0.60, 4 folds

      Flop: ($2.70) J T A (4 players)
      UTG+1 bets $0.80, UTG+2 calls $0.80, Hero calls $0.80, MP3 calls $0.80

      Turn: ($5.90) 7 (4 players)
      UTG+1 bets $2.20, UTG+2 raises to $7, Hero raises to $17.50 and is all-in, 2 folds, UTG+2 calls $10.50

      River: ($43.10) 8 (2 players, 1 is all-in)

      Results: $43.10 pot ($2.15 rake)
      Final Board: J T A 7 8
      UTG+1 mucked and lost (-$3.60 net)
      UTG+2 showed T J and lost (-$18.90 net)
      Hero mucked 8 9 and won $40.95 ($22.05 net)
      MP3 mucked and lost (-$1.40 net)


      oK so on the turn is where I question myself. Fishy aggro player bets, 10/7 passive reg raises.

      Here I shove:
      - to protect vs a higher FD
      - because I don't really like quite a few cards on the river and I would be put in a difficult spot (card that pairs the board, K, Q, club)
      - I have a redraw to flush against KQ

      Is it better to smooth call to allow the fish to join in?
      If on the river one of those scarecards come, I don't think I could fold given pot odds.

      Daniel
    • InsanityOnFire
      InsanityOnFire
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.01.2011 Posts: 120
      This is an interesting one... If you flatcall $7 you're not folding any river, but the question is would they shove with a worse hand if the river comes scary? Considering this, I'd push it on the turn. Actually near the half of the deck scares, so $5 that utg+1 could pay if you flatcall just are not worth.
    • InsanityOnFire
      InsanityOnFire
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.01.2011 Posts: 120
      Here's my hand. Kinda confused whether to protect against a pair+draw and get some value, or to potcontrol. If I'm calling the turn, I feel like I need to laydown on the river. Also the sizing is quite big. And it seems like I missed a valuebet on the river.

      Known players:
      Hero:
      $21.96
      BB:
      $31.76
      MP2:
      $27.82
      MP3:
      $9.69
      CO:
      $7.68
      BU:
      $26.97

      0.05/0.1 No-Limit Hold'em - Ante: $0.02 (6 handed)
      Hand recorder used for this poker hand: PokerStrategy.com Elephant 0.106 by www.pokerstrategy.com.

      Preflop: Hero is SB with 8:heart: , 8:club:
      4 folds, Hero raises to $0.40, BB calls $0.30.

      Flop: ($0.92) Q:diamond: , J:diamond: , 8:diamond: (2 players)
      Hero bets $0.64, BB raises to $1.28, Hero calls $0.64.

      Turn: ($3.48) 2:spade: (2 players)
      Hero checks, BB bets $4.2, Hero calls $4.20.

      River: ($11.88) J:club: (2 players)
      Hero checks, BB checks.

      Final Pot: $11.88
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      @M1rcea: What are you doing on the flop though?! ?(
    • bradomurder
      bradomurder
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.10.2008 Posts: 1,329
      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      @M1rcea: What are you doing on the flop though?! ?(
      Yeah this shows what was said in the original thread about the turn being hard cos of earlier streets. given the Q is not really an out you're calling with a gutshot, I think you need 16% equity (.80/(2.7+.8+.8+.8))? on the flop call. I guess it's kind of close but implied odds are low to negative and there's still someone behind so it's a fold for me.

      Anyway on the turn you get the best card in the deck, it's 4-way and there's a lot of scare-cards plus the action on the flop makes it unlikely someone has the better straight so I guess jam it in. Although a good reg wont pay you off with worse imo
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