# Everyone playing GTO

• Bronze
Joined: 10.07.2011
Wsup guys,i have kinda theoretical question.
In russian thread i find no help at all,so maybe ill find it here.
So,we have a field where all players play GTO.As u know
when everyone plays GTO,only poker room wins couse of rake.
And we are a player who wonna play in + vs GTO field.
Basically. we need find counrstrategy vs absolutly unexploitable game.
Is that mathematically possible?
Any1 who study Game Theory can help me with this?
Thx.
• 32 replies
• Bronze
Joined: 06.08.2009
By definition, there is no winning strategy against someone playing GTO. That said, I can think of a few reasons why you shouldn't try to develop and play a GTO strategy at most levels of poker.
• Bronze
Joined: 02.01.2010
If you are saying that a field of GTO players is given then you can't exploit it because that's what GTO is: unexploitable. If you are referring to practical situation, I assure you people are far from GTO.
• Bronze
Joined: 06.08.2009
Originally posted by EmanuelC16
If you are saying that a field of GTO players is given then you can't exploit it because that's what GTO is: unexploitable. If you are referring to practical situation, I assure you people are far from GTO.
For sure. I would say that it's impossible for a human to play GTO NLHE poker.
• Global
Joined: 14.01.2010
m sorry but wil someone tell me what s GTO.?
• Bronze
Joined: 26.11.2010
There's no GTO in poker imo. It's just theoretical.
• Bronze
Joined: 06.08.2009
Originally posted by sandymanufan
m sorry but wil someone tell me what s GTO.?
Game Theory Optimal. Basically it means playing with a strategy for which there is no winning counter-strategy.

For example, if we play paper-rock-scissors and I randomly pick each option with 33% frequency, you cannot come up with a counter-strategy which gives you an edge against my strategy.

There are plays you can make in poker for which there is no winning counter-strategy, but like I mentioned above - there are lots of reasons for why you shouldn't worry about doing it. For one, it assumes that your opponents are trying to play GTO as well, which in real life they aren't.
• Bronze
Joined: 25.10.2008
Originally posted by sandymanufan
m sorry but wil someone tell me what s GTO.?
It's like GTFO but without an F
• Bronze
Joined: 01.04.2009
Originally posted by sandymanufan
m sorry but wil someone tell me what s GTO.?
Game theoretical optimum
• Bronze
Joined: 02.01.2010
Originally posted by sandymanufan
m sorry but wil someone tell me what s GTO.?
Game Theory Optimal.

Originally posted by gsergiul
There's no GTO in poker imo. It's just theoretical.
Yes there is.
• Bronze
Joined: 02.01.2010
Let me just elaborate on why I think there is GTO.

There are games like FL 5CD where you only have 2 betting rounds. Easier to develop a GTO strategy.

In games like NLHE you have different stack sizes: The shallower the stacks the easier it is to actually play a GTO strategy. That's why good short stackers were so annoying and why the strategy was so successfull. Also, that's the reason CAP games are hard/impossible to beat. Everyone is unexploitable and they pay rake so they are actually losing.
• Bronze
Joined: 08.10.2010
If there is somebody at the table playing GTO, your best strategy against them is to play GTO yourself.

If the whole table is playing GTO, your best strategy is to pick up your coat (virtual or otherwise) and leave.
• Bronze
Joined: 10.07.2011
Originally posted by verneer
Originally posted by EmanuelC16
If you are saying that a field of GTO players is given then you can't exploit it because that's what GTO is: unexploitable. If you are referring to practical situation, I assure you people are far from GTO.
For sure. I would say that it's impossible for a human to play GTO NLHE poker.
So....
That means, that pefect GTO is impossible in NLHE coz poker is game with imperfect information?Am i right?
• Bronze
Joined: 02.01.2010
Originally posted by eveisonthejob
Originally posted by verneer
Originally posted by EmanuelC16
If you are saying that a field of GTO players is given then you can't exploit it because that's what GTO is: unexploitable. If you are referring to practical situation, I assure you people are far from GTO.
For sure. I would say that it's impossible for a human to play GTO NLHE poker.
So....
That means, that pefect GTO is impossible in NLHE coz poker is game with imperfect information?Am i right?
No, it's because it's hard to control wide ranges with deeper stacks. I mean, being 500bb deep, how are you going to show up with an optimal range on all board textures on the river?

Unlike when you are 2bb deep when you can certainly develop a shoving range according to preflop equities which is unexploitable.
• Bronze
Joined: 02.01.2009
GTO is unexploitable, however it is not optimal in the whole sense.

The worse the field is, the less you should care about your exploitability.

This is pretty much what coaches preach to microstakes players. Example:

Balancing ranges.

Balancing ranges makes it harder to be exploited by your opponents, however if they are not adjusting to for example someone who is only 3betting for value, then there isn't a strong case for balancing.
• Bronze
Joined: 26.11.2010
Originally posted by EmanuelC16
Originally posted by sandymanufan
m sorry but wil someone tell me what s GTO.?
Game Theory Optimal.

Originally posted by gsergiul
There's no GTO in poker imo. It's just theoretical.
Yes there is.
In theory there is, there's no one in this world playing GTO and there never will be.
• Bronze
Joined: 02.01.2010
Originally posted by gsergiul
Originally posted by EmanuelC16
Originally posted by sandymanufan
m sorry but wil someone tell me what s GTO.?
Game Theory Optimal.

Originally posted by gsergiul
There's no GTO in poker imo. It's just theoretical.
Yes there is.
In theory there is, there's no one in this world playing GTO and there never will be.
You only said poker, not what variant and what stack depth. For some variants and stack depths, people actually play unexploitable.
• Bronze
Joined: 15.04.2008
So if I get this correctly if everybody at your table plays GTO you can better GTFO. ^^
• Bronze
Joined: 26.11.2010
Originally posted by EmanuelC16
Originally posted by gsergiul
Originally posted by EmanuelC16
Originally posted by sandymanufan
m sorry but wil someone tell me what s GTO.?
Game Theory Optimal.

Originally posted by gsergiul
There's no GTO in poker imo. It's just theoretical.
Yes there is.
In theory there is, there's no one in this world playing GTO and there never will be.
You only said poker, not what variant and what stack depth. For some variants and stack depths, people actually play unexploitable.
My bad With shortstack I know the game is "quite" figured out but even then I doubt gto is better than some other strategy adapted to your fellow players as they are not playing GTO
• Bronze
Joined: 02.01.2010
Originally posted by gsergiul
My bad With shortstack I know the game is "quite" figured out but even then I doubt gto is better than some other strategy adapted to your fellow players as they are not playing GTO