Everyone playing GTO

    • eveisonthejob
      eveisonthejob
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.07.2011 Posts: 203
      Wsup guys,i have kinda theoretical question.
      In russian thread i find no help at all,so maybe ill find it here.
      So,we have a field where all players play GTO.As u know
      when everyone plays GTO,only poker room wins couse of rake.
      And we are a player who wonna play in + vs GTO field.
      Basically. we need find counrstrategy vs absolutly unexploitable game.
      Is that mathematically possible?
      Any1 who study Game Theory can help me with this?
      Thx.
  • 32 replies
    • verneer
      verneer
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.08.2009 Posts: 366
      By definition, there is no winning strategy against someone playing GTO. That said, I can think of a few reasons why you shouldn't try to develop and play a GTO strategy at most levels of poker.
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      If you are saying that a field of GTO players is given then you can't exploit it because that's what GTO is: unexploitable. If you are referring to practical situation, I assure you people are far from GTO. :)
    • verneer
      verneer
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.08.2009 Posts: 366
      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      If you are saying that a field of GTO players is given then you can't exploit it because that's what GTO is: unexploitable. If you are referring to practical situation, I assure you people are far from GTO. :)
      For sure. I would say that it's impossible for a human to play GTO NLHE poker.
    • sandymanufan
      sandymanufan
      Global
      Joined: 14.01.2010 Posts: 310
      m sorry but wil someone tell me what s GTO.?
    • gsergiul
      gsergiul
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.11.2010 Posts: 234
      There's no GTO in poker imo. It's just theoretical.
    • verneer
      verneer
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.08.2009 Posts: 366
      Originally posted by sandymanufan
      m sorry but wil someone tell me what s GTO.?
      Game Theory Optimal. Basically it means playing with a strategy for which there is no winning counter-strategy.

      For example, if we play paper-rock-scissors and I randomly pick each option with 33% frequency, you cannot come up with a counter-strategy which gives you an edge against my strategy.

      There are plays you can make in poker for which there is no winning counter-strategy, but like I mentioned above - there are lots of reasons for why you shouldn't worry about doing it. For one, it assumes that your opponents are trying to play GTO as well, which in real life they aren't.
    • NightFrostaSS
      NightFrostaSS
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2008 Posts: 5,255
      Originally posted by sandymanufan
      m sorry but wil someone tell me what s GTO.?
      It's like GTFO but without an F
    • doctorkgb
      doctorkgb
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.04.2009 Posts: 1,263
      Originally posted by sandymanufan
      m sorry but wil someone tell me what s GTO.?
      Game theoretical optimum
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      Originally posted by sandymanufan
      m sorry but wil someone tell me what s GTO.?
      Game Theory Optimal.

      Originally posted by gsergiul
      There's no GTO in poker imo. It's just theoretical.
      Yes there is.
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      Let me just elaborate on why I think there is GTO. :f_biggrin:

      There are games like FL 5CD where you only have 2 betting rounds. Easier to develop a GTO strategy.

      In games like NLHE you have different stack sizes: The shallower the stacks the easier it is to actually play a GTO strategy. That's why good short stackers were so annoying and why the strategy was so successfull. Also, that's the reason CAP games are hard/impossible to beat. Everyone is unexploitable and they pay rake so they are actually losing.
    • RedHeater
      RedHeater
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.10.2010 Posts: 219
      If there is somebody at the table playing GTO, your best strategy against them is to play GTO yourself.

      If the whole table is playing GTO, your best strategy is to pick up your coat (virtual or otherwise) and leave.
    • eveisonthejob
      eveisonthejob
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.07.2011 Posts: 203
      Originally posted by verneer
      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      If you are saying that a field of GTO players is given then you can't exploit it because that's what GTO is: unexploitable. If you are referring to practical situation, I assure you people are far from GTO. :)
      For sure. I would say that it's impossible for a human to play GTO NLHE poker.
      So....
      That means, that pefect GTO is impossible in NLHE coz poker is game with imperfect information?Am i right?
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      Originally posted by eveisonthejob
      Originally posted by verneer
      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      If you are saying that a field of GTO players is given then you can't exploit it because that's what GTO is: unexploitable. If you are referring to practical situation, I assure you people are far from GTO. :)
      For sure. I would say that it's impossible for a human to play GTO NLHE poker.
      So....
      That means, that pefect GTO is impossible in NLHE coz poker is game with imperfect information?Am i right?
      No, it's because it's hard to control wide ranges with deeper stacks. I mean, being 500bb deep, how are you going to show up with an optimal range on all board textures on the river?

      Unlike when you are 2bb deep when you can certainly develop a shoving range according to preflop equities which is unexploitable.
    • conall88
      conall88
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2009 Posts: 1,715
      GTO is unexploitable, however it is not optimal in the whole sense.

      The worse the field is, the less you should care about your exploitability.

      This is pretty much what coaches preach to microstakes players. Example:

      Balancing ranges.

      Balancing ranges makes it harder to be exploited by your opponents, however if they are not adjusting to for example someone who is only 3betting for value, then there isn't a strong case for balancing.
    • gsergiul
      gsergiul
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.11.2010 Posts: 234
      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      Originally posted by sandymanufan
      m sorry but wil someone tell me what s GTO.?
      Game Theory Optimal.

      Originally posted by gsergiul
      There's no GTO in poker imo. It's just theoretical.
      Yes there is.
      In theory there is, there's no one in this world playing GTO and there never will be.
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      Originally posted by gsergiul
      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      Originally posted by sandymanufan
      m sorry but wil someone tell me what s GTO.?
      Game Theory Optimal.

      Originally posted by gsergiul
      There's no GTO in poker imo. It's just theoretical.
      Yes there is.
      In theory there is, there's no one in this world playing GTO and there never will be.
      You only said poker, not what variant and what stack depth. For some variants and stack depths, people actually play unexploitable.
    • sirilidion
      sirilidion
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.04.2008 Posts: 1,575
      So if I get this correctly if everybody at your table plays GTO you can better GTFO. ^^
    • gsergiul
      gsergiul
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.11.2010 Posts: 234
      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      Originally posted by gsergiul
      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      Originally posted by sandymanufan
      m sorry but wil someone tell me what s GTO.?
      Game Theory Optimal.

      Originally posted by gsergiul
      There's no GTO in poker imo. It's just theoretical.
      Yes there is.
      In theory there is, there's no one in this world playing GTO and there never will be.
      You only said poker, not what variant and what stack depth. For some variants and stack depths, people actually play unexploitable.
      My bad :) With shortstack I know the game is "quite" figured out but even then I doubt gto is better than some other strategy adapted to your fellow players as they are not playing GTO
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      Originally posted by gsergiul
      My bad :) With shortstack I know the game is "quite" figured out but even then I doubt gto is better than some other strategy adapted to your fellow players as they are not playing GTO
      GTO is about you not being exploited not about exploiting the maximum out of your opponents.

      For example, if you play rock/paper/scissors, the GTO strategy is choosing 1/3 of the time each. But if you know your opponents chooses 100% of the time rock, your best strategy is to choose 100% of the time paper.

      Oh, and don't get fooled by the example into thinking GTO is 0EV. It is +EV but not MaxEV in all situations. That's why reads and dynamics affect ranges and MaxEV play.
    • 1
    • 2