Valuebluff

    • Kyyberi
      Kyyberi
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 09.07.2010 Posts: 10,511
      In hand analysing section, term "valuebluff" was used. In that hand it was used to describe a bet with made hand, that is ahead most of the time, but doesn't really want a call. In the example it was check-raise with AA42 on 742r board. To me that looks like a protection bet.

      I have used that term to describe a little different situation.

      Valuebluff = when you bet as a bluff, and know that opponent isn't folding, but you think that you can get the pot on later streets.

      Traditionally, bluff is a bet when you want your opponent to fold a better hand. But what if you bet even when you know that your opponent isn't folding?

      Sometimes, when you have good reads on [bad] opponent, you might come up with a situation like that. Like if you have a good read on opponent that he will call with overpair 1 or 2 bets on paired boards. And he doesn't slowplay trips, but will raise them on flop.

      So the flop comes 662, and you cbet with air. Opponent check-calls, so your reads tell you that most of the time he has an overpair. Turn is blank (8), and opponent checks again. Now you know that if he has overpair like KK or QQ, he will call again. But won't call river unless he hits the boat or 6 comes. So you bet again with air, even as you know that he won't fold a lot of times. River blanks, you bet again and he folds. So on turn you made a valuebluff. :)

      Of course this kind of play is based on very good reads, and works on only a very small amount of players. But still, sometimes there are spots like that. Another spot might be monotone boards, when you have ace blocker. And you have reads that opponent calls flop and turn with a flush, but folds his flush on big river bet (as he can't have nut flush). So on turn you might make a valuebluff.

      Interesting concept, any thoughts?
  • 6 replies
    • fruktpuff
      fruktpuff
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      Joined: 24.09.2010 Posts: 3,982
      I like the train of thought you're going for, would be interesting to see what other people chip in with.
    • JonikoP
      JonikoP
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      Joined: 15.05.2010 Posts: 600
      Yep, I've read an article in Bluff magazine on the same thing. I think it was written by Citizenwind.

      It's a good concept - getting money in the pot that you know you can take down on later streets. You have to know your opponent well though.
    • patszerdonk
      patszerdonk
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      Joined: 19.05.2011 Posts: 834
      Interesting concept.

      How much we should bet OTT and OTR? I think we should represent set, and betting as much as if we have set, right? (I'm not 100% sure).
    • Kyyberi
      Kyyberi
      Coach
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      Joined: 09.07.2010 Posts: 10,511
      It depends on stack sizes. If you don't have the ammo for river, it's just wasted money. I tried to find an example, but couldn't remember any. Very rare spot, although normal 3 barrel bluff on flush draw board is almost the same thing on turn.
    • lilDave
      lilDave
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      Joined: 24.04.2011 Posts: 264
      One crucial thing to remember in PLO is range VS range equities (as well as Hand vs Hand) run very close together in a lot of spots, which is why, in the high % of spots betting and getting a fold from your opponent is the best outcome. As in you will be betting with a decent or even quite strong hand, you can easily be called by worse hands and you might even be stacking off to a raise, so you're not bluffing but you do ideally want your oppo to fold.

      I think it's a very bad idea to bet with zero equity if you think your villain won't fold immediately very often, there are a lot of variables and you need to be VERY sure he'll fold to turn bets a very high % of the time otherwise it quickly turns into mad spew.
    • Kyyberi
      Kyyberi
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 09.07.2010 Posts: 10,511
      That is another concept which isn't seen much in holdem. Protection bet, where you don't really want opponent to call.

      As in holdem, protection bet is usually made to make the opponent pay if he likes to continue. In plo, there are a lot of situations where you are almost sure that you have the better hand, but you don't want your opponent to call.

      This valuebluff is a rare thing. But against certain opponents, it's a thing to concider.