ICM explorer deeper

    • strategic12
      strategic12
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.06.2011 Posts: 2,457
      Hi,

      would you please answer if ICM explorer is capable to work in postflop area as good as in preflop area? Exactly in "Call bet" and "Call push" decisions I´d like to know if something changes postflop or not. Can I continue adding chips in the "Bets" column and then count the equity needed until the river?

      And if yes, I don´t know if I have count correctly "Call bet" and "Call push" equity till now.

      For example, 3-way pot BvB spot, BU folds, SB limps, Hero on BB checks. Stacks are 4000 4000 4000, blinds 50/100. On the flop SB checks, BB bets 200, sb raises to 600. Now I want to count the "Call bet?" equity. Should be in the "Bet" field 600-200=400? And in the "Bets" column at SB 200 chips and at BB 400 chips?

      Then I count "Call push" equity and decide what to do. :)
  • 7 replies
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      The ICM works at the end of the hand, so it is still good to use ICM Explorer to see how much equity you need to call a postflop push or a river bet. The stacks should be the amount the players had at the start of the hand, before blinds/antes, and the bet should be the total amount the player has put into the pot on all streets including blinds and antes. In your example, the BB's bet amount should be 100+200, and the SB's bet amount should be 100+600.

      You should be careful that calling a small bet on the flop might not take you to showdown. So, in your example, calling just sets up the next street, which might be significantly worse for you than checking it down. So, you can't use the "Call Bet" amount. If you have something like king-high against an aggressive small blind, you might have enough equity to call if there could be no more bets, but you might not be able to call profitably with two more streets of betting and little chance of improving immediately.

      If you could call a push, it is generally right at least to call any smaller bet. There are some rare exceptions, but if you could call a push (by the SB's current range) then shoving over the small raise is usually better than folding. Exceptions can occur if the small blind either has a weak hand with no equity or a strong, and the pot is small, so that shoving gets no more chips from the SB's weaker hands but pays off the monsters too much.

      Another consideration is that there are often alternatives to pushing postflop. ICM Explorer doesn't tell you much about whether to bet on the flop instead of checking since it doesn't tell you the value of checking behind or of betting and getting called.
    • strategic12
      strategic12
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.06.2011 Posts: 2,457
      Thank you. I´ve studied and understood the nearly all the reply. :)

      Originally posted by pzhon
      Another consideration is that there are often alternatives to pushing postflop. ICM Explorer doesn't tell you much about whether to bet on the flop instead of checking since it doesn't tell you the value of checking behind or of betting and getting called.
      Here I contemplate about having a flush draw with an overcard, being out of position 2-way on the flop. When I count equity needed for "value bet", it shows some 55%. "Call push" gives some 35% equity. Because of a tourney specifics, I want to have some equity edge for calling the push, say 40% against the oponent´s range.

      The situation is nearly similar but equity depends much on if I bet for value or call the push. When I respond in evaluation hands forum I often write: "I wouldn´t bet the spot for value but I would call if the player would bet/push". Is this right, please? Do you often use the value bet button this way?
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      The value-bet button assumes that there will be no more betting after both alternatives. This is not the case when you have a flush draw. If you have money to bet, and your flush hits, then you will probably bet or call at that point. In fact, since you are out of position, then if you check your opponent may bet.

      There are times when you don't have enough equity to want to put more money in, but if your opponent pushes you would call. There are also times you would like to bet for value except that you don't want to inflate the size of the pot to set up bad situations later.

      The ICM is a good model for your equity after the hand, but it doesn't tell you how to handle multistreet situations. It just helps you to quantify how much you are risking and the value of the rewards.
    • strategic12
      strategic12
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.06.2011 Posts: 2,457
      Thank you! :)

      As I understand it is the matter of experience and sense for a play.

      I have another unclear issue which ICM Explorer does not solve, but I would like to know how to think of it, please.

      When I am going to call push and here are possible overcalls behind me I need more equity in general as you wrote in one reply.

      But what if there is a raiser in front of the pusher which I contemplate to call? There are some chips in the pot already, so ICM explorer shows a lower needed equity.

      Therefore, possible overcalls increase a needed equity and chips added by this raiser(s) to the pot in advance decrease it?
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      ICM Explorer is not designed to handle multiway pots.

      If you were sure that the initial raiser would fold after a call (or a fold by you), then the equity reported by the "Call Push?" button would be correct. Of course, a reraise tends to represent a tighter range than an initial raise or push, so you usually need a stronger hand to call.

      Both the possibilities that the initial raiser might overcall if you call and that the initial raiser might call if you fold raise the equity you need for calling to be better than folding. The same is true when you are considering a call from the small blind with the big blind left to act.
    • strategic12
      strategic12
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.06.2011 Posts: 2,457
      Thanks! :)

      Your reply makes sense to me now.
    • strategic12
      strategic12
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.06.2011 Posts: 2,457
      I came through the other problem hand.

      It is a KO tournament. The value of the bounty in Pokerstars structure is 25/9=2.77%. Hero can win a part of it against 2 opponents.

      PokerStars - $5.24+$1.31+$0.45|25/50 NL (9 max) - Holdem - 8 players

      BTN: 5,040.00
      SB: 270.00
      BB: 750.00

      [/B]UTG: 1,965.00
      Hero (UTG+1): 1,565.00
      MP: 1,705.00
      MP+1: 870.00
      CO: 1,335.00

      SB posts SB 25.00, BB posts BB 50.00

      Pre Flop: (75.00) Hero has A :heart: Q :spade:

      fold, Hero raises to 125.00, fold, fold, fold, fold, SB calls 100.00, BB calls 75.00

      Flop: (375.00, 3 players) J :heart: 7 :spade: T :spade:
      SB checks, BB bets 150.00,HERO ?

      both loose fishes vpip/pfr(hands)
      1st short - 38/0(8)
      2nd short - 63/13(8)

      When I count the equity needed for Hero to call push it is 40.83% excluding the SB´s push. So Hero needs maybe 45% including SB. He has some 25%, counted against 2 players in Equilab. So it is fold in a standart fullring sng tournament.

      At KO tournaments we have an bounty equity which is easy to count and add to the Diff % in SNG wizard before flop.

      After flop I am able to count the equity by ICM explorer and Equilab but not to add the bounty equity to the Hero´s. Would you please help me? :)