Robot Wars at William Hill

    • YohanN7
      YohanN7
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.06.2009 Posts: 4,084
      Hi there!

      I am usually not the guy believing very much in stories about rigged sites or poker robots everywhere. However, what I've noted the past month or so is according to my oppinion noteworthy.

      Observation #1: This is just a curiosity, but nonetheless, I've been involved in seven (perhaps eight, lost count) straight flush pots (Hold'em). This has happened during about 14000 hands. No, I'm not complaining because I was the one who got them. The point is that a few years ago, a straight flush seemed like a memorable thing - it din't happen every day. Now I just shrug my shoulders. The same observation applies to coaching sessions I've seen live here at PS and videos - straight flushes are everywhere. (Please observe that I can't see any particular reason for the site to manipulate the RNG in such a way as to produce this - nor do I have any other theory. (The hands are stored in Elephant, so I can back up my story :] ))

      Observation #2: This is more substantial. Of course, like everybody else, I've bumped into a buch of regulars. The thing is this. These regulars follow a few odd routines.
      1.) They play all tables they can get in to with at least four players in limit Hold'em between limits $0.10/0.20 to $1/$2. They never play a pot heads up and disappear like cockroaches when the table begins to break up.
      2.) They allways buy in for exactly the same amount. I don't mean in big blinds but in dollars regardless of wether it is $0.10/0.20 or $1/2. They are suffuciently "deep" in $0.10/$0.20 but coul'd not play four capped streets in $1/2, Each of these regs has "his" particular amount. One has $22, one has $25, etc, this is the only way I can distinguish them - apart from their nicks; read on...
      3.) The player stats are, according to "Elephant" more or less identical after about 5000 hands. The data are converging to precicely the same numbers for the more common stats.

      I want to emphazise that I'm not whining or complaining or have any theories in particular about this phenomenon, but it is curious ... (It's quite easy to play against them, but hard to win much - or lose much for that matter. They have very rigid ranges.)

      Any comments on this?
      I've been away from poker a couple of years, so please, educate me on these matters! Are players just ten times better today and playing some optimal strategy or what?

      EDIT: Please see post #22 for list of suspects.

      /Johan = :f_confused:
  • 28 replies
    • sucker1952
      sucker1952
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      Joined: 25.10.2011 Posts: 80
      What you have probably come across is pokerbots. they exist more in limit holdem because of the simplicity of betting and odds. Unlike nl they dont need to take on as much info about player tendancies, they play rigid ranges and robotically repeat the process..you should report these players as bots also usually work together to manipulate odds and are programmed to play on tables of atleast a certain no. of players!!

      you could also be up against a reg playing tons of tables which can make it seem quite robotic.

      anyways the sites usually spot these players but tip offs do help them look through the stats.
    • Lazza61
      Lazza61
      Headadmin
      Headadmin
      Joined: 23.03.2011 Posts: 9,188
      Originally posted by YohanN7
      Hi there!

      I am usually not the guy believing very much in stories about rigged sites or poker robots everywhere. However, what I've noted the past month or so is according to my oppinion noteworthy.

      Observation #1: This is just a curiosity, but nonetheless, I've been involved in seven (perhaps eight, lost count) straight flush pots (Hold'em). This has happened during about 14000 hands. No, I'm not complaining because I was the one who got them. The point is that a few years ago, a straight flush seemed like a memorable thing - it din't happen every day. Now I just shrug my shoulders. The same observation applies to coaching sessions I've seen live here at PS and videos - straight flushes are everywhere. (Please observe that I can't see any particular reason for the site to manipulate the RNG in such a way as to produce this - nor do I have any other theory. (The hands are stored in Elephant, so I can back up my story :] ))

      Observation #2: This is more substantial. Of course, like everybody else, I've bumped into a buch of regulars. The thing is this. These regulars follow a few odd routines.
      1.) They play all tables they can get in to with at least four players in limit Hold'em between limits $0.10/0.20 to $1/$2. They never play a pot heads up and disappear like cockroaches when the table begins to break up.
      2.) They allways buy in for exactly the same amount. I don't mean in big blinds but in dollars regardless of wether it is $0.10/0.20 or $1/2. They are suffuciently "deep" in $0.10/$0.20 but coul'd not play four capped streets in $1/2, Each of these regs has "his" particular amount. One has $22, one has $25, etc, this is the only way I can distinguish them - apart from their nicks; read on...
      3.) The player stats are, according to "Elephant" more or less identical after about 5000 hands. The data are converging to precicely the same numbers for the more common stats.

      I want to emphazise that I'm not whining or complaining or have any theories in particular about this phenomenon, but it is curious ... (It's quite easy to play against them, but hard to win much - or lose much for that matter. They have very rigid ranges.)

      Any comments on this?
      I've been away from poker a couple of years, so please, educate me on these matters! Are players just ten times better today and playing some optimal strategy or what?

      /Johan = :f_confused:


      Yes and No

      Because of wondeful sites like PS, online players are better educated.
      When these players start to build their BR, an awful lot of these players hit the micros playing Short Stack Strategy (search site for more info), the upshot being sometimes you will be at a table with a load of people playing the same hands and using the same betsizing and 3bet strategies.

      Now "bots", i could rant about these for years. They are the most insidious and evil piece of software in the poker world. Most sites have strict security
      and ban bots or can detect them, some sites put a box up where u have to type in some numbers. then there are iPoker skins. Ipoker skins such as Poker770 and William Hill (not sure of Titan) have had a reputation in the past for allowing bots (knowing or unknowingly).

      Some key things to look for

      1) Usernames with a name and 3 or 4 numbers ( in particular multiple uses ie ramst123 and ramst463

      2) Timing ie the time it takes to make a decision. If the interval doesn't change, it's suspicious however multitablers who preselect will also fall into this category.

      3) Always folding to 3bet. Setting up a bot is no small matter. You have to key in all your hand ranges per position and the bots reaction to what happens before it's turn, but not much else. So when a bot is 3bet it often doesn't know what to do so it folds.

      Incidentally MIT int the US are hosting a tournament for people who have designed their own bots. Last time i looked it had 37 entries.

      PS. I am not anti iPoker. After polerstars willy hill and poker770 are my number 2 and 3 sites

      PPS. Poker online is rigged, but not to benefit anyone. the idea is to put out
      a board that will give big hands to at least 2 players based on the startings hands they are given. To my knowledge the deck is predetermined before the first card is dealt at all sites except Everest.

      Also do they burn a card before each street?
    • YohanN7
      YohanN7
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.06.2009 Posts: 4,084
      Sucker and Lazza, interesting reading. Very interesting!

      I'll post the stats I have on the suspects in this thread tomorrow (impersonated, let's not hang an innocent man (yet)), and I'd be happy to see your reaction on them...

      By the way, sucker, I think the simplicity of Limit Hold'em is illusionary. It takes quite some effort to become a decent limit player. See Boomers videos if you aren't convinced.

      But I agree that limit is probably easier to program than no limit to make a breakeven bot, but at the same time a gigantic job if you want the robot to be halfway decent beating more than calling stations playing any Ax. The only way I personally can win a little in limit holde'm is by exploiting individual player tendencies. One successfull or failed move per 100 hands can make the whole difference between winning and losing in this game, especially on what seems to be todays scene with robots everywhere that don't make any horrendous mistakes.

      /Johan = :f_confused:
    • Vygantas82
      Vygantas82
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      Joined: 02.04.2010 Posts: 361
      the pokerbots don't have to be great winners on ipoker. their owners takes those 60-70 % cashback deals through affiliates so they make good profits through cashback. but you know who cares ipoker is walking dead now so WH and few other ipoker bookies don't want to share their betting recreation players and want to split like ongame just did. and now on those skins like betfair, bwin you can play again, not just pass blinds to each other. (even thought according to tower poker owners ongame is also bot infested). But you know till there is no real regulation in online poker nobody cares. Like you know everybody shouts "we want full tilt back". so what that they will be back. they will buy license in some small corrupted offshore country again and will be free to make their ponzy scheme's (again). FTP, AP/UB and few other cases showed how well those small countries "regulates" online poker, casinos, etc. maybie not offcourse, but who knows. who can give you guarantee?
    • ZeroDegrees
      ZeroDegrees
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      Joined: 03.06.2008 Posts: 743
      Im playing some at wh for the strategy points, 0.10/20 SH limit right now, so I can understand you. I don't think they're bots, maybe the have some program helping them, I don't know. I end up with 3 of them always. Average pots are 4 BB's, no action, crappy hands, suckouts, slow. I really hate that site, but need some points for my level here. Have been times I felt physically sick after, usually it's better, just feeling mentally sick for an hour or so. I don't consider myself playing poker there. I don't know what it is, but Im worse at that game. Maybe things will get better at low or middle stakes. For those of you who plays backgammon, its like playing on pogo. If you can hit a brick in the beginning its very possible your opponent will dance with sixes. I strongly recommend you switch to stars, after all the experiences I went through, it's a euphoric sensation. You can't get a decent win rate in 4 BB's pots with opponents who folds too much except when they cap flop into 3 players for a runner-runner 2 high flush and hit.

      GL
    • fruktpuff
      fruktpuff
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      Joined: 24.09.2010 Posts: 3,982
      Online poker does not burn a card before each street, because the purpose of burning a card is in order to make sure that in case someone has somehow managed to sneak a peek at the top card, they cannot base their decision on what this card is(well, for exclusion out outs purposes, but not for pure play), this is not something that is needed in online poker, as you do not have visual access to the deck itself.

      Regards,
      Richard
    • YohanN7
      YohanN7
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      Joined: 15.06.2009 Posts: 4,084
      #ZeroDegrees

      The players I am talking about are tight and aggresive. They never do the suckout thing (unless they have odds). If you play $0.10/0.20 up to $0.5/1 you should have bumped in to them, sure, but they don't chase.

      Their most distinctive trademark is the amount they buy in for. It is constant over levels. If one player does such a thing, then, well, ... But, if exactly the players that you on other grounds have reasons to suspect do this peculiar thing, then ..., you draw your own conclusions here.

      /Johan = :f_confused:
    • datsmahname
      datsmahname
      Global
      Joined: 23.11.2009 Posts: 1,366
      edit: i should qualify this by saying that running into straight flushes is most likely a bad run.. and theres no good reason why this has anything to do with whether or not people have deployed bots on iPoker. lets not muddy the water.

      ----

      yeah theres a bunch of regs on the iPoker network that i've suspected were bots. roughly 7 players who post insane hand volumes basically every day, they all check their sets on 4straight turns, and every single one has been losing without rakeback.

      in general its extremely rare to find players who explicitly grind with the intent of yielding a small rakeback profit. its a very unrewarding end game unless it requires little to no effort to achieve and therefore is perfectly suited for things that have no trouble doing the same thing over and over.

      I found one of my posts from a thread a few months back.

      Can someone investigate these players with PTR premium?

      Players with suspect tendencies:
      http://www.pokertableratings.com/ipoker-...search/beninnio
      http://www.pokertableratings.com/ipoker-...arch/appollodor
      http://www.pokertableratings.com/ipoker-...-search/alavala
      http://www.pokertableratings.com/ipoker-...search/Huko34uk
      http://www.pokertableratings.com/ipoker-...earch/zacharyas

      All 5 players show similar VPIP/PFR/3-bet and continuation bet tendencies. All of them have extremely high hand volumes and long sessions, all but 1 is winning without rake back.


      Even if they arent bots, having them at your table can turn good spots into marginal or losing situations. Few players have the high rakeback deals that would allow them to play profitably against 1 fish and 4 guys like this.
    • w34z3l
      w34z3l
      Coach
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      Joined: 03.08.2009 Posts: 13,295
      A while back ipoker removed a whole bunch of bots from the micro stakes NLHE games at ipoker. ( http://www.pokerstrategy.com/news/world-of-poker/Bots-on-the-iPoker-Network:-Where-Things-Now-Stand_52477/ )

      I'm convinced there are still a lot more. (albeit running a different bot)

      There is a whole bunch of micro-stakes players with similar looking PTRs, all losing at a similar steady rate. All of them put in sick volume, more than any human micro-stakes player ever would imo (it'd at least be rare).

      They also make bets with the same sizing. 3bet sizing is always the same depending on position hero opens from. Also these suspected bots have the interesting tell of betting pot-size on the flop with air - imo something that I don't see /that/ often on any other network and suddenly I'm seeing it a ton from the same group of players.

      Anyway, I'm going to monitor the situation and when I have some more specific detailed information I may start a new thread. If anyone wants to help me track down specific information about these bots and their tendencies - I would be very interested to hear from you - send me a community PM for my skype alias.

      These bots have outlived the former bot ring that was removed.....but these are slightly more sophisticated and have evidently slipped through the net. It does somewhat suprise me that ipoker who presumably have better bot detection equipment than me can't spot these bots. I think the idea of them knowing about these bots and denying all existence is definitely a real possibility. I've even had theories that ipoker put the bots there to help boost their traffic. Seems to be the only explanation why some botters have managed to put in millions of hands without being removed.
    • YohanN7
      YohanN7
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      Joined: 15.06.2009 Posts: 4,084
      #datsmahname

      Wow, that list from a prev thread ... Spot on! These are precisely my suspects.

      #w34z3I

      All of these players (list above) display the particular characteristics I've described in earlier posts, including buying in for fixed amounts regardless of limit.

      ---

      B t w, that thing about straight flushes in my first post has - as datsmahname says - nothing to do with bots. Just a curiosity. (Yes, I've had two more since then.)

      /Johan = :f_confused:
    • dirtyibis
      dirtyibis
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      Joined: 20.01.2008 Posts: 51
      OK, I did have a few ipoker suspects on nl20 but I no longer really play that there and wouldn't know much about any of the players. The fixed limit players that datsmahname has alluded to I know rather well. These guys are killing the games. They play retarded. Don't take offence to this YohanN7, but a blind person could spot these bots coming from miles away. I think it's good you're posting on this topic because it's serious.

      ipoker is doing nothing about these clowns. If they think it's helping their fixed-limit traffic, which is pathetic compared to what I know it could be, they are braindead. I think it's because of these suckhole bots that the $1/$2 games don't run consistently. I used to be happy to play these guys but now I refuse to, why should I help them do what they want to do? Now, when the table starts to break, you have regs just pulling out cos they dont wanna play 3 regs and a bot and then the bot pulls and you dont have a game anymore. It totally sucks. Meanwhile, they're at .10/.20SH sucking every cent out of poor recreational players looking to enjoy the game. Most I imagine were just like me, naive and wouldn't know any better. It's totally unfair and now I'll only play at the higher stakes of ipoker where these bots cant play. Anyone with any awesome suggestions on what we should do? I sometimes feel as if it's become a lost cause as ipoker just don't care about their players
    • YohanN7
      YohanN7
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      Joined: 15.06.2009 Posts: 4,084
      #dirtyibis

      Well, who would be interested in setting this straight?

      Who could set this straight?

      PokerStrategy.com could surely do something (e.g. put sites on a black list), but do they (or is that we?) want to? I don't know the intricacies of the inner workings of the overall poker economy, but surely money flows, and ipoker/WH is part of that flow - as is PokerStrategy.

      What I do know is that in the end the players pay the bill.

      /Johan = :f_confused:
    • Tarhonya
      Tarhonya
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      Joined: 18.07.2010 Posts: 694
      First of all, about the straight flushes:

      I don't think there's anything extra about them for two reasons:
      - Our brain likes to focus on certain things more than on others, like remembering the times you suck out on someone less, than others sucking out on you (probably because of emotional attachment).
      - Nowadays online players are playing way more hands than they used to a couple years ago for reasons like better softwares, faster internet and might be even due to shorthanded games got more popular.


      And about the bots.

      Yes, iPoker's limit holdem tables are full of them. It's been like that for a long time now and most likely will remain the same. The management of the dirrefent skins (poker770, wh, etc) are more or less helpful about the matter, but they do not have the means to do anything about it except of course to report them to the main, ipoker network's management. That is all that PokerStrategy can do too which it did on more occasions afaik.
      Now the problem with that is the ipoker network is refuses to take action on the matter. Maybe they just love the money these bots are making for them or maybe their software is just so poorly developed that it's unable to pickup on user actions like timing tells, mouse movements/actions, running applications and all that good stuff required to analyze players. Or maybe both.

      The biggest problem with that - especially as an FL player - is that new fixed limit players who start to play on the ipoker sites (which is basically the first recommended option with free starting capital) will learn to hate the game quite quickly.
      But since money is money nothing's about to change anytime soon from either side.

      Personally, I hope the whole network will collapse and will be forgotten because it's a shame that such network exists.
    • YohanN7
      YohanN7
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      Joined: 15.06.2009 Posts: 4,084
      #Tarhonya

      Forget that thing about straight flushes. I shouldn't have put that in this thread to begin with. Ten+ of then in 10 000 hands i still a lot regardless of how the human brain works or if I played 200 tables at once.

      On what PokerStrategy could do: They could (I don't say they should), if they really wanted to, void the deals with questionable sites, or at least, temporarily stop referring new players there. This has already happened regarding the $50 starting capital, for other reasons perhaps.

      Now the $50 starting money isn't offered at WH any longer, but it was offered when I began. Thus, since I'm a FL player, I was forced (there is a cap on the limits you can play with the starting $50) to play theese players. The typical new player would then lose the initial $50 (to the suspects), deposit fresh own money, and then start chasing the first deposit bonus. Still against the very same suspects. Since I'm not the typical new player beat the robots and lost my money playing fish HU instead :rolleyes:

      /Johan = :f_confused:

      What I'm trying to say is that it is questionable to pipeline new players to suspect sites knowing they are likely to lose to robots and then deposit.
    • pappadjango
      pappadjango
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      Joined: 23.07.2010 Posts: 107
      hi,ill add my 2 cents.i used to play on everest playing nl15/25c.id be playing 4/5 tables 12 hours a day,the reason being the money was good so putting in the hours was very rewarding.no doubt in my mind that there were 7 profiles with a name plus the numbers following that were bots.i wasnt using a hud at the time but the shear volume i put in with these guys it was easy to see there betting tendencies.they would always buy in mid stack,play a certain strict range,never flat a 3 bet as 90% of the time they would fold to a min 3 bet which was so easy to exploit!late at nite or early in the morning they would be the only players online out of the 6 tables open at that limit plus they would never play eachother heads up.anytime i played day or night they were at my tables,i was like these guys are ob not human because they never sleep or talk in chat EVER!!they are ob there either put by the site or players to create rake.even if they are getting 30%+ rakeback the site is taking the rest of course so its win for the site up or down so why would they care as they increase their bottom line at the end of the day yes?so i looked into it .... it is possible to buy and use bots on stand alone software which i believe everest to be! correct me if im wrong.the site i saw firstly had a basic bot to buy,then you would/could purchase the required add on format programme to add to your bot to play a certain limit mtt/sng or cash variant.so i looked into some of the algorithms yawn!!i tore apart a basic $5 hu t sng programme.the guys that designed these i must admit have serious skills and this is only a basic one which can furthermore be upgraded!!!,it comprised of a complex hand range analysis which increased dramatically over a very small sample size!every hand it plays,sees,beats,loses is stored for auto correction/improvement which ob gives a massive edge over any/every player, even when steve hawkins wheels in for a session:) these programmes would defo set off a red flag on a site with 3 or more plus tier security and are pretty awesome.im only saying that in envy of the way these were done and not because they are bot programmes:) anyways the basic ones that are mentioned in this blog are an easy fix,firstly report them if ya like,secondly dont play them and give them what they want if they frustrate you:) oooorrrrrrrrr just play them and milk them for all their worth with pure simple maths because at the end of the day its a game of %s right :D hope this helps a bit signed harry.botter. lol :f_p:
    • dirtyibis
      dirtyibis
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      Joined: 20.01.2008 Posts: 51
      Well the thing is, these same douchebags have gotten away with this for a very long time. It's common knowledge almost now that they're bots. At first I didn't want to believe it, then I was defiant and wanted to crush them, then I realized the damage they do to the community. If you search their names in pokertableratings.com youll see all the comments from other players flagging them as bots, yet they are still there...I don't know what to do, I'll provide information if it helps. It is important NOT to post information on beating them or their dumb tendencies etc. as if they were to receive such information it could help them immensely. There's nothing really they shouldn't be able to figure out themselves, but since they can't play poker to save themselves and use bots they can't be too clever, can they. Don't help these vile scumbags.
    • YohanN7
      YohanN7
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      Joined: 15.06.2009 Posts: 4,084
      #pappadjango

      I am sure you write something interesting there. Unfortunately, I couldn't read it.

      #dirtyibis

      Why on earth would it be important not to discuss how to beat these things? I don't buy your explanation at all.

      You try to beat them the same way you would try to beat any player. Get a read on them and then adjust to it. They don't 3-bet A6o - they fold it. Every time. Even so if they read this thread.

      /Johan = :f_confused:
    • Tarhonya
      Tarhonya
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      Joined: 18.07.2010 Posts: 694
      Originally posted by YohanN7
      You try to beat them the same way you would try to beat any player. Get a read on them and then adjust to it. They don't 3-bet A6o - they fold it. Every time. Even so if they read this thread.
      That's not the point, simply because players who can notice and furthermore exploit tendencies like that are most likely not playing the micros anymore, conversely beginning players who would most likely be profitable due to fishes now are losing players.
    • YohanN7
      YohanN7
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      Joined: 15.06.2009 Posts: 4,084
      #Tarhonya

      I honestly don't understand what you mean. Please explain.

      /Johan = :f_confused:
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