[NL2-NL10] Phew!!! Dodged a bullet

    • maheepsangari
      maheepsangari
      Gold
      Joined: 08.06.2010 Posts: 2,163
      Poker Stars, $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players

      Don't have a lot of stats on them but both of them were pretty loose.

      BB: $13.12 (262.4 bb)
      UTG: $11.02 (220.4 bb)
      Hero (MP): $5.31 (106.2 bb)
      CO: $4.98 (99.6 bb)
      BTN: $5 (100 bb)
      SB: $3.12 (62.4 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is MP with J J
      UTG raises to $0.15, Hero calls $0.15, CO folds, BTN calls $0.15, 2 folds

      Flop: ($0.52) A Q 8 (3 players)
      UTG checks, Hero checks, BTN checks


      Turn: ($0.52) J (3 players)
      UTG bets $0.25, Hero calls $0.25, BTN calls $0.25

      Made a set here but I wasn't comfortable raising here. I didn't know if I should be protecting this hand or playing for pot control. Both the players were very loose and could have anything. They could have KT, 9T or two :spade: s or a straight draw and they would call if I would raise. So I thought its either shoving here or just calling and firing on the river. There was one guy to act behind me and I had no clue what he could be holding and I knew he'd call either way so i just called and decided to play way-ahead way-behind.

      River: ($1.27) 6 (3 players)
      UTG checks, Hero checks, BTN checks

      River completes a flush. The guy behind me could have a flush completed here. Had I made a full house I would have fired away(thank God I didn't make one).

      Results: $1.27 pot ($0.05 rake)
      Final Board: A Q 8 J 6
      UTG showed A A and won $1.22 ($0.82 net)
      Hero mucked J J and lost (-$0.40 net)
      BTN mucked Q T and lost (-$0.40 net)
  • 7 replies
    • Anger86
      Anger86
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.08.2008 Posts: 511
      I'd definitely raise turn for value and get it in. Why slowplay and let both opponents draw for free.

      Originally posted by maheepsangari

      Made a set here but I wasn't comfortable raising here. I didn't know if I should be protecting this hand or playing for pot control. Both the players were very loose and could have anything.
      So, yes you want to get the pot bigger, because you can get value from many worse hands.
      As you say they can have anything. I agree, if the are loose.
      Then just get the value from 2 pair hands and draws.
      If it's a call on the turn from someone, then ck/f river, when spade hits.

      Turn getting AI is a must for me vs. loose players.

      EDIT: Pls, don't post results. It just makes some people results orientated.
      Play the range, etc.
    • maheepsangari
      maheepsangari
      Gold
      Joined: 08.06.2010 Posts: 2,163
      Thanks for your analysis Anger86. Ususally thats what I would do shove on the turn but you need to see that this board is a lot more trickier than it looks in my opinion and on top of that there were 2 opponents.



      Board: A:spade: Q:club: 8:spade:  J:heart:
             Equity     Win     Tie
      MP3    30.52%  27.46%   3.06% { KTs, KTo, T9s, T9o, xsxs}
      CO     30.52%  27.46%   3.06% { KTs, KTo, T9s, T9o, xsxs}
      BU     38.95%  38.95%   0.00% { JJ }


      compare this too


      Board: A:spade: Q:club: 8:spade:  J:heart:
             Equity     Win     Tie
      CO     44.00%  44.00%   0.00% { KTo, KTs, T9s, T9o, xsxs }
      BU     56.00%  56.00%   0.00% { JJ }


      Against one opponent I would have still shoved. The question is really think about it, against this board, 2 opponents is your set good enough? Or would it be wise to take the passive line and play way ahead, way behind? The J could very well have completed a straight of the opponent behind me and KT and T9 are very well in both their ranges. I just thought that this hand wasn't the best to take them out and that I should wait for a better situation.
    • Anger86
      Anger86
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.08.2008 Posts: 511
      Originally posted by maheepsangari

      Against one opponent I would have still shoved. The question is really think about it, against this board, 2 opponents is your set good enough? Or would it be wise to take the passive line and play way ahead, way behind? The J could very well have completed a straight of the opponent behind me and KT and T9 are very well in both their ranges. I just thought that this hand wasn't the best to take them out and that I should wait for a better situation.
      Well, I see more options:
      1. I raise, 1 folds, the other guy raises, I shove. [Expect to be in OK shape]
      2. I raise, 1 calls, the other guy raises. [then i think]
      3. both of them fold
      4. both of them call [evaluate river]
      5. Both raise, so then I can start to assume, if they can have a straight.

      #5 situation isn't going to happen so often, i think.
      Also, I'd just raise a normal amount, not shove AI. (Not sure, if you understood that from me :) )
    • Jimanyjerk
      Jimanyjerk
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.12.2010 Posts: 366
      This is only an opinion, I'm practising my hand evaluations :)

      You're giving them a hand range of what is basically the nuts based on a preflop raiser, a flop check, and a turn bet? Yes there are a few hands that improved to be better (assuming every t9 and every KT called preflop there are about 32 combinations that beat you and and a few more suited spades that have strong outs,) BUT I don't think you have enough information on the turn to put them on that range with loose opponents.

      How many Ax hands can they have in their range that would check the flop, then bet the turn? I don't think you can automatically discard a weak ace like AT (which you are crushing,) two pair with AQ, AJ, (has outs to a full but you're still strong against,) AK (still crushing,) or even 2 flush draws which are blocking each other. The slow played aces and queens suck for you but that's poker, it's very unlikely to occur.

      I could be quite wrong here but I do agree with making a raise on the turn. If you have the best hand you get more money in the pot and you make it possible for people to fold. If only one folded and one re-raised I will probably shove it because there are many hands that we still beat that loose opponents would love to play. If the play after my raise went 3bet,4bet then I'd definitely consider folding my set.

      On the river with the flush completed I would probably play the same way, maybe call a small bet but prefer to check and see showdown for free.

      If you think I should revise any assumptions please let me know.

      I hope my point of view helps a bit! Good luck at the tables!
      G.
    • maheepsangari
      maheepsangari
      Gold
      Joined: 08.06.2010 Posts: 2,163
      Yeah well after reading your posts I agree that a raise was in order on the turn. I can't really put them on the range that I am putting them on cause none of them did anything to justify that range.

      I should have raised to $0.75 and checked the river again if I was just called. If one of them would call the turn and donk river then I'd call if the bet wasn't too big.

      Lets assume that one person folded and one of them 3-Bets me on the river. What do you think should be done?

      If he'd 3-Bet he could have a completed straight or could also have a monster draw, Double Gutshot+Flush Draw which could be with T :spade: x :spade: . I'd have to fold to a 3-Bet on the turn.



      Board: A:spade: Q:club: 8:spade:  J:heart:
             Equity     Win     Tie
      MP3    32.16%  32.16%   0.00% { JdJc }
      CO     67.84%  67.84%   0.00% { KTs, T9s, TsAs, TsQs, TsJs, 8sTs, 7sTs, 6sTs, 5sTs, 4sTs, 3sTs, 2sTs, KTo, T9o }
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Hello maheepsangari,

      I would definitely raise the turn for protection and value. :) His range may consist of so many hands there, any draw, any pair and etc. :) Funny how dumb people play their strong sets. :D

      Best Regards.
    • maheepsangari
      maheepsangari
      Gold
      Joined: 08.06.2010 Posts: 2,163
      Yeah well looking back at it I think it was quite dumb of me too to play that hand that way.