Razz river raise

    • Borisian
      Borisian
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.01.2012 Posts: 947
      Poker Stars $0.25/$0.50 Limit Razz $0.05 Ante - 8 players
      DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

      3rd Street: (1.6 SB)
      Hero: 6 :diamond: 7 :club: 2 :club: ___Hero calls
      Seat 2: xx xx Q :club: ____Seat 2 folds
      Seat 3: xx xx Q :heart: ____Seat 3 brings in for $0.10____Seat 3 folds
      Seat 4: xx xx 3 :diamond: ____Seat 4 folds
      Seat 5: xx xx J :club: ____Seat 5 folds
      Seat 6: xx xx 8 :diamond: ____Seat 6 folds
      Seat 7: xx xx 2 :heart: ____Seat 7 completes
      Seat 8: xx xx 8 :club: ____Seat 8 folds

      4th Street: (4 SB) (2 players)
      Hero: 6 :diamond: 7 :club: 2 :club: J :heart: ___Hero checks
      Seat 7: xx xx 2 :heart: Q :diamond: ____Seat 7 checks

      5th Street: (2 BB) (2 players)
      Hero: 6 :diamond: 7 :club: 2 :club: J :heart: 3 :heart: ___Hero checks
      Seat 7: xx xx 2 :heart: Q :diamond: 3 :club: ____Seat 7 checks

      6th Street: (2 BB) (2 players)
      Hero: 6 :diamond: 7 :club: 2 :club: J :heart: 3 :heart: T :club: ___Hero checks___Hero calls
      Seat 7: xx xx 2 :heart: Q :diamond: 3 :club: 7 :spade: ____Seat 7 bets

      7th Street: (4 BB) (2 players)
      Hero: 6 :diamond: 7 :club: 2 :club: J :heart: 3 :heart: T :club: 4 :heart: ___Hero checks___Hero raises
      Seat 7: xx xx 2 :heart: Q :diamond: 3 :club: 7 :spade: xx____Seat 7 bets
      ____Seat 7 folds


      Would you say this is a reasonable raise situation? I'm not sure about my call on 6th either.

      Thanks

      B.
  • 11 replies
    • madorjan
      madorjan
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.11.2009 Posts: 5,561
      Hey,

      I'm not a big razz expert, but here are my thoughts. (If a real razz expert could take a look into it, that would be awesome.)

      3rd is standard, I'd flat with my whole range to protect my weaker hands.

      4th is standard if the opponent is thinking in relative hand strength and will realize, that his range is still stronger than yours, so he should be betting here.

      5th is a standard bet for me. On 4th the opponent showed us that he's weak. There's just a few opponents, who will check back 4th with a premium 3 card hand. So even if this 3 helped him, you still probably have the better draw, and you have the better made hand (slightly), so you should bet. If you're checking, are you check/calling? Seems very passive to me, and since you'll rarely get raised in this situation, I'd just put in the same bet that you would, but with fold equity against draws that have HCEQ.

      6th is weird, since he can already have you drawing dead in theory, but in practice, will he? Would he check back something like A25Q3 or even A65Q3 on 4th when he so obviously has the better draw? I don't think so. However you should also consider that 2 8s are dead, that incredibly lowers the possibility of him having an 8. I literally can't put anything in his hand, just some really rough 7s, some rough 8s, maybe 9s. Or of course paired 3s and paired 7s. (Paired 3s also unlikely, 2 are dead.) So I'd definitely c/c here trying to keep the bluffs in his range, and planning to call down on basically every river.

      7th the c/r is kind of marginal, just because we can't win more from his bluffs, and only his rare 8s may pay us off, and if my initial assumptions were not right he may have more valuehands (like really passively played better holecards and stuff), so I'd just c/c here, but I don't hate the c/r if we're able to fold to a 3bet.

      Cheers,
      Madi
    • Borisian
      Borisian
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.01.2012 Posts: 947
      Thanks Madi,

      You confirmed my thoughts on the river raise, it seemed a little optimistic at the time.

      B.
    • chenny8888
      chenny8888
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.10.2007 Posts: 19,324
      i 3bet 3rd but it's close, i don't hate calling here... if i had a smoother 7 i'd always 3bet.

      agree with madorjan mostly but 6th looks like a c/f to me, the pot is only 2BB and he bets 1BB, our immediate odds vs his range doesn't seem good enough.
    • madorjan
      madorjan
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.11.2009 Posts: 5,561
      I definitely don't agree with 2betting 3rd. Don't you want to call there with a shitload of worse hands? 8s, even 9s, etc. Your call range will suffer like hell from 2betting good hands and just calling with weak ones, you become transparent and bluffable in close board spots. Your opponent's completion is probably not a steal, and there's no one behind you that you want to isolate the completer against. I call with my whole range here, including A32 and others.
    • Borisian
      Borisian
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.01.2012 Posts: 947
      Controversy! I love it!

      I can see the respective merits for both plays.

      By just calling we are keeping the villains range wide and giving the somewhat rough 3 card 7 a cheap shot at improvement.

      On the other hand a raise would further define the villains holding giving us better information and improved odds on 6th street.

      The fold to the raise on the river makes me think that the villain probably had a brick in the hole to begin with and that he was attempting to steal.

      B.
    • madorjan
      madorjan
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.11.2009 Posts: 5,561
      You misunderstood something.:) We don't keep the Villain's range wider by calling, since I don't expect him to ever compl/fold with this lineup behind him. We keep our call range stronger so that he couldn't put us on a weaker/stronger range when we call here. Since in stud-games everybody can see your range basically, since it's face up on the table, balance comes much more into consideration.

      Cheers,
      Madi
    • Borisian
      Borisian
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.01.2012 Posts: 947
      Originally posted by chenny8888
      but 6th looks like a c/f to me, the pot is only 2BB and he bets 1BB, our immediate odds vs his range doesn't seem good enough.
      I see what you're saying but 5th street gave me an inkling that he wasn't that strong at all.
    • AceBestini
      AceBestini
      Gold
      Joined: 09.11.2008 Posts: 3,821
      Originally posted by madorjan
      5th is a standard bet for me. On 4th the opponent showed us that he's weak. There's just a few opponents, who will check back 4th with a premium 3 card hand. So even if this 3 helped him, you still probably have the better draw, and you have the better made hand (slightly), so you should bet. If you're checking, are you check/calling? Seems very passive to me, and since you'll rarely get raised in this situation, I'd just put in the same bet that you would, but with fold equity against draws that have HCEQ.

      6th is weird, since he can already have you drawing dead in theory, but in practice, will he? Would he check back something like A25Q3 or even A65Q3 on 4th when he so obviously has the better draw? I don't think so. However you should also consider that 2 8s are dead, that incredibly lowers the possibility of him having an 8. I literally can't put anything in his hand, just some really rough 7s, some rough 8s, maybe 9s. Or of course paired 3s and paired 7s. (Paired 3s also unlikely, 2 are dead.) So I'd definitely c/c here trying to keep the bluffs in his range, and planning to call down on basically every river.
      Hi
      That's why bet on 5th is the best way to know what to do when the situation turns into sth like that on 6th street. When you bet on 5th you can take down villain with 3's paired (ofc unlikely with dc) and sometimes you can face a raise with a wheel draw. Then you would know what is all about on 6th like that.

      6th is weird, true, but when we compare the pot and probabilities, it's not worth to fight in that hand. It's c/f for me.

      As played, On 7th i would just call.
    • AlfaChino
      AlfaChino
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.04.2012 Posts: 11
      Hi guys...


      First and biggest mistake was made by not raising Seat7 completion. If he was tight player i can understand it but then hand is totally missplayed and folding should occure on the 6th street. By raising we would get information we need to proceed... If he just calls he is on mediocre range, if he raises back then we know where we are and even take conservative way and just fold or if we played further fold on 6th street if putting him on premium range...

      In Razz deuce is bluffing card and will often no matter hole cards complete and if called will try to catch up or represent on later streets...simple...

      How it was played i would give Seat7 range of T92, 972 at best but probably worse, something like K92, KT2.

      4th street - J and Q are dealth on and this is automatic bet for the hero as advantage is obvious and bet has to be made to protect the hand...check would be very conservative...

      5th street - 3 completes the hand and this is even bigger reason to bet as hand is made and is in front of his hand even if he has premium...Bet! you have to protect the hand... In stud games you dont miss on a bet or slowplay unless you have a monster and giving oponent chance to catch up or bluff...

      6th street - I know there will be lots of players out there shaking heads when they read this but correct play here is check raise... This gives you info you are missing, how strong your oponent is... if he folds, we protected our hand and extracted maximum by check raising, if he calls or raises back we are most likely in trouble...but id go with my read and say we are in front... this is the only street to consider folding how hand is played... check/fold or checkraise and if raised back fold... thats the way to play it... otherwise its stupid to check call on the 7th street if we think we are beat...

      7th street - about standard as it can be if we play our read, check raise to extract maximum value... if we bet we wont be called by hand that missed, this is the only way to take more money out of him... check call is out of the question of course if we think we were beat on 6th street then we should have folded back then and not check calling here...

      AC


      PS: Somebody please remove RESET button from here!!! I wrote everything and missclicked reset instead of preview and lost everything so had to rewrite this again...arrrrrrghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
    • RainmanTrail
      RainmanTrail
      Basic
      Joined: 15.05.2010 Posts: 24
      3rd street is an almost always MUST reraise hand in a standard razz game as villain SHOULD be stealing here (with only a 2,8,Q,Q behind him to act, he should be raising pretty wide here). There are really only two reasons to NOT be reraising this hand on 3rd street. They are: 1) villain is very tight and you have a solid read on him that tells you he only raises smooth 3 card hands here, 2) you are trying to balance your play with reraising and floating because you also float here with hands like 2J5 (which is another discussion really).

      4th street is a MUST bet as played - because you didn't reraise him on 3rd and for the same reasons mentioned above... he could have a brick in the hole.

      5th street is a MUST bet again - for the same reasons we've mentioned twice now. Also, he has shown additional weakness on 4th.

      6th street is a good call (I'd even be pretty surprised if we don't have the best hand right now).

      7th street is actually a bit closer than the rest of the decisions, but since your showing two wheel cards, he can't really reraise you with a better 7. However, if your 76 were showing, I'd be a bit more hesitant to raise a 76 into what could be a smooth 7 or folding type of hand. As played though, I like the raise just fine.
    • RainmanTrail
      RainmanTrail
      Basic
      Joined: 15.05.2010 Posts: 24
      Originally posted by madorjan
      You misunderstood something. We don't keep the Villain's range wider by calling, since I don't expect him to ever compl/fold with this lineup behind him. We keep our call range stronger so that he couldn't put us on a weaker/stronger range when we call here. Since in stud-games everybody can see your range basically, since it's face up on the table, balance comes much more into consideration.

      Cheers,
      Madi
      I'm complete/folding a fair portion of my range here if I'm the villain. Villain is in a completely standard steal position. He should be stealing here all day long.