[NL2-NL10] AKo ex.2 4.03.

    • HansTheGreat
      HansTheGreat
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.02.2010 Posts: 3,807
      CO: $7.87 - VPIP: 37, PFR: 0, 3B: 0, AF: 1.3, Hands: 49
      BTN: $19.94 - VPIP: 13, PFR: 8, 3B: 4, AF: 3.0, Hands: 901
      SB: $4.05 - VPIP: 8, PFR: 8, 3B: 3, AF: 4.4, Hands: 818
      BB: $10.74 - VPIP: 14, PFR: 11, 3B: 2, AF: 1.3, Hands: 282
      UTG: $3.50 - VPIP: 47, PFR: 11, 3B: 3, AF: 1.9, Hands: 206
      UTG+1: $13.50 - VPIP: 13, PFR: 10, 3B: 1, AF: 3.0, Hands: 374
      Hero (MP1): $19.91 - VPIP: 16, PFR: 12, 3B: 4, AF: 4.3, Hands: 36676
      MP2: $9.36 - VPIP: 11, PFR: 5, 3B: 0, AF: 4.0, Hands: 150

      Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero is MP1 with A :spade: K :club:
      2 folds, Hero raises to $0.40, 2 folds, BTN raises to $1.20, 2 folds, Hero raises to $3.90, 1 fold

      Correction: 3bet BU 7,5%
      Do you mind the 4bet since the player 3bet more on BU?
  • 7 replies
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Hello Sikac,

      Well, I might even prefer just calling and playing it postflop. He continues here just with strong made hands and never any weaker Ax/Kx. You are turning your hand into bluff, that's the problem.

      Best Regards.
    • HansTheGreat
      HansTheGreat
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.02.2010 Posts: 3,807
      Originally posted by veriz
      Hello Sikac,

      Well, I might even prefer just calling and playing it postflop. He continues here just with strong made hands and never any weaker Ax/Kx. You are turning your hand into bluff, that's the problem.

      Best Regards.
      When to 4bet then? And why except KK+?Do actually people 4bet? I simply do not feel comfortable playing this hand OOP? Sometimes I do against so specific opponent but against this one I think that I do not have the required knowledge to make this a profitable play so I rather turn into a bluff then play without a plan especially deep.
    • Wriggers
      Wriggers
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.07.2009 Posts: 3,250
      I prefer a 4bet tbh. The problem with calling a 3bet OOP and trying to play postflop is that on the majority of flops villain can take the pot down when we miss even when he has a bluff like Kxs or something. We only hit the flop ~30% of the time so by calling and trying to play OOP we give villain the opportunity to take the pot down 70% of the time with any hand he 3bets with, whereas if we 4bet we can fold out a potentially large equity share of his preflop from hands like 88-TT and low pocket pairs/suited connectors with 2 live cards against us.

      Whilst we do fold out a lot of hands we beat by 4betting we don't lose that much value in that sense, since on the flop if we flop TPTK and check to villain, he cbets and we shove and he folds. We can't get a lot of value when we do hit, AQ and AJs on Axx flops is really our only chance of getting stacks in ahead. random Kxs hands aren't going to stack off on a Kxx flop, and A2s-A5s isn't going to stack off on Axx flops.
    • HansTheGreat
      HansTheGreat
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.02.2010 Posts: 3,807
      Originally posted by Wriggers
      I prefer a 4bet tbh. The problem with calling a 3bet OOP and trying to play postflop is that on the majority of flops villain can take the pot down when we miss even when he has a bluff like Kxs or something. We only hit the flop ~30% of the time so by calling and trying to play OOP we give villain the opportunity to take the pot down 70% of the time with any hand he 3bets with, whereas if we 4bet we can fold out a potentially large equity share of his preflop from hands like 88-TT and low pocket pairs/suited connectors with 2 live cards against us.

      Whilst we do fold out a lot of hands we beat by 4betting we don't lose that much value in that sense, since on the flop if we flop TPTK and check to villain, he cbets and we shove and he folds. We can't get a lot of value when we do hit, AQ and AJs on Axx flops is really our only chance of getting stacks in ahead. random Kxs hands aren't going to stack off on a Kxx flop, and A2s-A5s isn't going to stack off on Axx flops.
      Well, I also think this way also from what I know Luiz(I sure you know who I mean) also thinks this way. But must be a reason why a much more experienced player thinks this way. I have to admit I can t by calling play this hand profitable. I simply not that good. I do not have a plan for such spots OOP that I could comfortable call and outplay him postflop.So basically I depended if I hit or not. Could you sure Veriz your reason for a call rather then a 4bet? Also what do you guys think about my raise size?I mean I know that I m OOP but I plan to muck it if he shoves so basically I could save some money(let s say 3,40$).
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      Originally posted by Sikac
      Correction: 3bet BU 7,5%
      Do you mind the 4bet since the player 3bet more on BU?
      In order to call you need to know your opponent's tendencies (NOT STATS!). You have to start with preflop where that 8% BU 3bet can pe polarized or depolarized. Against depolarized you should have good implied odds because he will flop the 2nd best hand very often. The problem though is that some players actually 3bet those and then potcontrol when called, especially at such low stakes, which means you won't be able to get too much money in OOP.

      Against either polarized or depolarized 3betting range, 4betting AKo should be +EV. For one thing, he will call a decent amount IP because of stacks (SC and PPs will peel to see a flop imo) and second, if you don't 4bet AKo here you shouldn't have a 4betting range against this type of player. I say this because not 4betting AKo means you 4bet KK+, which means you will either fold too much to 3bets or call too much OOP 200bb deep neither of which is +EV without solid info on opponent.

      You know so little about your opponent that you can actually go any of the 3 ways. Your biggest problem is that after 900 hands with the guy you only have stats. There will never be one right way to play this, you always need to go from what you know. You know you are ahead of his 3betting range so you can 4bet or call. If you 4bet you risk getting thrown of the best hand/flip preflop or postflop and if you call you take the same risk postflop. If the reverse implied odds are so big for you when either calling or 4betting then you should choose a weak preflop fold.
    • Wriggers
      Wriggers
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.07.2009 Posts: 3,250
      Manu is correct as usual ;) Although I still think a call should be out of the question unless we know something about our opponent. Playing OOP in a 3bet pot 200bb deep with a hand that very rarely flops anything better than one pair is absolutely suicidal in my opinion.

      4betting does sort of turn our hand into a bluff, as we're never "ahead" so to speak when we are called. But if he does peel with pocket pairs and suited connectors he's folding a hell of a lot of flops, so having initiative here helps us pick up an awful lot of dead money on the flop. He obviously 5bets KK and AA, so we have an easy fold then. QQ and JJ would most likely call and set mine. If he's disciplined he won't get the stacks in 200bb deep with QQ or JJ overpair, only when he hits a set.

      So 4betting we give ourselves the opportunity to fold out a lot of villain's equity share preflop if he folds pocket pairs, if he calls them then we set ourselves up to pick up a shitload of dead money on the flop. By 4betting we basically rule out KK and AA when we are called, so we gain more information.

      Tbh in this situation i'd prefer a very weak fold over a call vs his 3bet.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Could you sure Veriz your reason for a call rather then a 4bet?

      Well, practically you answered your problem already yourself. If you don't feel very good postflop, you don't know where to play back, or either what kind of range does the opponent 3bet then just 4bet/Fold which will be the safest option. He is not going to 5bet vs us without having a hand anyways.