icm?

  • 14 replies
    • UPAY4DINNER
      UPAY4DINNER
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.09.2009 Posts: 21,926
      Hi ulairiiiii,

      Just noting that I've moved your thread to a more relevant board where you have a much better chance of getting an answer.

      Best regards,
      Gary
    • kurrkabin
      kurrkabin
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.10.2010 Posts: 5,976
      Originally posted by ulairiiii
      How successfull can be a player playing vanilla icm sngs until 60$?

      Hi ulairiiii,

      What do mean by vanilla icm sng? :f_rolleyes:
    • ulairiiii
      ulairiiii
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.07.2011 Posts: 519
      Originally posted by kurrkabin
      Originally posted by ulairiiii
      How successfull can be a player playing vanilla icm sngs until 60$?

      Hi ulairiiii,

      What do mean by vanilla icm sng? :f_rolleyes:

      to follow icm no matter what
    • ThatGuyMatt
      ThatGuyMatt
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.12.2010 Posts: 3,758
      Vanilla can sometimes mean "Original" in my experience, if that helps someone help him? :f_biggrin:
    • dangermowse
      dangermowse
      Silver
      Joined: 24.10.2010 Posts: 1,185
      Well firstly that's impossible. But if one could, then reasonably successful, but not optimally so.
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      The vast majority of winning SNG players would improve their games if they followed the ICM more closely. Yes, there should be some deviations, but most players don't know just how risk-averse the ICM says they should be in many common situations. Sometimes they are too cautious, and sometimes they take bad gambles.

      One of my students was #1 for his stake level on the Sharkscope leader boards, with an ROI a couple of points higher than any other high-volume player. According to the ICM, he wasn't aggressive enough in some common situations, and his opponents were not calling as often as they should against an aggressive ICM player. After improving his play in those situations he felt that his ROI should improve by more than 1%, and he did have a nice (but inconclusive) run for the next couple thousand SNGs.
    • dangermowse
      dangermowse
      Silver
      Joined: 24.10.2010 Posts: 1,185
      If you were to take every +ev move possible and never make -ev moves (well according to wiz at least), you will NEVER achieve the highest possible ROI. I know that much.
    • ulairiiii
      ulairiiii
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.07.2011 Posts: 519
      Originally posted by pzhon
      The vast majority of winning SNG players would improve their games if they followed the ICM more closely. Yes, there should be some deviations, but most players don't know just how risk-averse the ICM says they should be in many common situations. Sometimes they are too cautious, and sometimes they take bad gambles.

      One of my students was #1 for his stake level on the Sharkscope leader boards, with an ROI a couple of points higher than any other high-volume player. According to the ICM, he wasn't aggressive enough in some common situations, and his opponents were not calling as often as they should against an aggressive ICM player. After improving his play in those situations he felt that his ROI should improve by more than 1%, and he did have a nice (but inconclusive) run for the next couple thousand SNGs.

      You think is better to follow icm trainer or sng wizard?
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      Originally posted by ulairiiii
      You think is better to follow icm trainer or sng wizard?
      In order to use SNG Wizard, you have to change the very bad default ranges. If you don't know how to change the ranges, then ICM Trainer will be much better. If you do know your opponents' ranges, then SNG Wizard will be better.
    • lycoreus
      lycoreus
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.01.2012 Posts: 223
      Originally posted by pzhon
      Originally posted by ulairiiii
      You think is better to follow icm trainer or sng wizard?
      In order to use SNG Wizard, you have to change the very bad default ranges. If you don't know how to change the ranges, then ICM Trainer will be much better. If you do know your opponents' ranges, then SNG Wizard will be better.
      At micro SnGs more than 4 out of 9 players are random and unknown. how should we correct their ranges? tighter or looser?
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      Originally posted by lycoreus
      At micro SnGs more than 4 out of 9 players are random and unknown. how should we correct their ranges? tighter or looser?
      The adjustment isn't that simple. It's not that you should simply use the tight model or the loose model in SNG Wizard instead of the average model. One exception is that SNG Wizard's overcalling ranges are usually too loose. However, overcalls are usually unimportant compared with pushing and calling ranges. Sometimes SNG Wizard's ranges are way too tight, and sometimes they are too loose.

      I suggest watching my video on ranges in super turbos for an idea of the typical patterns of actual players.

      By the time you get to the push/fold portion of a turbo or normal SNG, you have gotten to watch each player for some orbits. This lets you tell the difference between a player who is loose early and one who is tight early. You should use this information to stereotype the players.
    • lycoreus
      lycoreus
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.01.2012 Posts: 223
      ty, definately gonna watch it...when i reach that status :f_p:
    • lycoreus
      lycoreus
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.01.2012 Posts: 223
      Originally posted by pzhon
      Originally posted by lycoreus
      At micro SnGs more than 4 out of 9 players are random and unknown. how should we correct their ranges? tighter or looser?
      The adjustment isn't that simple. It's not that you should simply use the tight model or the loose model in SNG Wizard instead of the average model. One exception is that SNG Wizard's overcalling ranges are usually too loose. However, overcalls are usually unimportant compared with pushing and calling ranges. Sometimes SNG Wizard's ranges are way too tight, and sometimes they are too loose.

      I suggest watching my video on ranges in super turbos for an idea of the typical patterns of actual players.

      By the time you get to the push/fold portion of a turbo or normal SNG, you have gotten to watch each player for some orbits. This lets you tell the difference between a player who is loose early and one who is tight early. You should use this information to stereotype the players.
      ...but i have trouble practicing the icm. i tried SNG wiz but i dont have the experience yet to put my opponents in very accurate ranges, so i turned to icm trainer light again. My goal is to study it again and again untill i answer 100% correct, but i noticed that the programm's push ranges are much more tighter than Nash. So i want to eventually become an expert icm player but i am wondering if i make a wrong start. What should i do? Can you suggest me a method to practice?
    • kurrkabin
      kurrkabin
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.10.2010 Posts: 5,976
      Originally posted by lycoreus

      ...but i have trouble practicing the icm. i tried SNG wiz but i dont have the experience yet to put my opponents in very accurate ranges, so i turned to icm trainer light again. My goal is to study it again and again untill i answer 100% correct, but i noticed that the programm's push ranges are much more tighter than Nash. So i want to eventually become an expert icm player but i am wondering if i make a wrong start. What should i do? Can you suggest me a method to practice?

      Hi, lycoreus!


      Not to make you wait anymore, I will share my opinion with you and if somebody else has what to share- be welcome.

      I much rather start with ICM TRAINER (not the light one). It's ranges are close to nash, which is not great in general as many of your opponents won't be playing nash, but it is a somewhat good starting point. I used it back in the day when I first started with SnGs. I would suggest you do post hands in our evaluation forums giving your reads/stats on the opponents, so we can give you a better idea of their/your push/calling ranges.


      Here is the forum: Click

      Also, print our push/fold charts from the strategy section and always have them next to you when playing until you memorize them! I used to do the same thing and it gave me an edge over the field on the micros! Helpful stuff! When you reach a higher status on our site(super easy with our promos), you will be able to take advantage of some great video/strategy articles material.

      Here goes the graph material:
      Click