[NL2-NL10] AQo 12.03.

    • HansTheGreat
      HansTheGreat
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.02.2010 Posts: 3,807
      Party Poker $10.00 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players - View hand 1678247
      DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

      SB: $8.72 - VPIP: 22, PFR: 4, 3B: 4, AF: 2.3, Hands: 76
      BB: $10.00 - VPIP: 13, PFR: 9, 3B: 4, AF: 1.8, Hands: 754
      UTG: $10.00 - VPIP: 0, PFR: 0, 3B: 0, AF: 0.0, Hands: 5
      Hero (UTG+1): $16.05 - VPIP: 16, PFR: 12, 3B: 3, AF: 4.3, Hands: 48171
      UTG+2: $9.40 - VPIP: 70, PFR: 33, 3B: 11, AF: 1.5, Hands: 64
      MP1: $6.99 - VPIP: 11, PFR: 10, 3B: 9, AF: 4.2, Hands: 841
      MP2: $9.84 - VPIP: 18, PFR: 6, 3B: 3, AF: 1.4, Hands: 560
      CO: $8.87 - VPIP: 30, PFR: 2, 3B: 0, AF: 6.9, Hands: 200
      BTN: $11.00 - VPIP: 19, PFR: 12, 3B: 3, AF: 2.2, Hands: 1220

      Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero is UTG+1 with Q :club: A :heart:
      1 fold, Hero raises to $0.40, UTG+2 calls $0.40, 5 folds, BB calls $0.30

      Flop: ($1.25) 2 :spade: 4 :diamond: 4 :heart: (3 players)
      BB checks, Hero bets $0.89, UTG+2 folds, BB folds

      BB:

      If he would have called would also fire the turn

      UTG+2
  • 9 replies
    • Wriggers
      Wriggers
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.07.2009 Posts: 3,250
      I don't like cbetting this flop. It's low, dry, paired and multiway. And since both players ranges consist of a lot of pocket pairs we won't be seeing both players fold this flop very often at all. I prefer to check/call this flop really and try to get to showdown since we do probably have the best hand, but by betting we are just folding out all hands in his range that we beat and keeping in a few that we beat (Other Ax) and pocket pairs, which we only have ~25% equity against.

      As played if we are called I barrel cards higher than a Ten, and give up on the rest.
    • HansTheGreat
      HansTheGreat
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.02.2010 Posts: 3,807
      Originally posted by Wriggers
      I don't like cbetting this flop. It's low, dry, paired and multiway. And since both players ranges consist of a lot of pocket pairs we won't be seeing both players fold this flop very often at all. I prefer to check/call this flop really and try to get to showdown since we do probably have the best hand, but by betting we are just folding out all hands in his range that we beat and keeping in a few that we beat (Other Ax) and pocket pairs, which we only have ~25% equity against.

      As played if we are called I barrel cards higher than a Ten, and give up on the rest.
      I think X/C is the worst option since we have just A high since we would loose fold equity and UTG+2 is not going to spare you if he feels weakness. I have fold equity since I m the PFA and now I have to put both players on ranges and how they improved or unimproved on this board(against UTG we could value bet out A high and against BB ranges if he calls we would need to fire again since it consist of a lot of high cards,SC and PP. If I X then I m folding.


             Equity     Win     Tie
      UTG+1  41.26%  38.72%   2.54% { AhQc }
      UTG+2  27.07%  26.07%   0.99% { 33+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T3s+, 95s+, 85s+, 75s+, 64s+, 54s, A2o+, K3o+, Q5o+, J7o+, T7o+, 97o+, 87o }
      BB     31.67%  29.55%   2.12% { JJ-22, AQs-A4s, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, AQo-AJo, KJo+, QJo }
    • Wriggers
      Wriggers
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.07.2009 Posts: 3,250
      We have BB's calling range waaay too lose here, also looking at his stats I doubt he is calling high cards and SC vs a cbet, he's just calling overpairs imo. If we check we actually get a lot more info. If UTG+2 bets and BB calls we can make an easy fold, if UTG+2 bets and BB folds we can make an easy call and bluffcatch.

      By betting this flop we are folding out all the hands we beat, do you really think either of them are folding any pair on this board? There are virtually no draws out there so we're just folding out high card hands that we beat, and our equity against their calling range vs a cbet on the flop isn't great at all.

      Just think, why are we betting on this flop? Because we probably have the best hand isn't a reason to make a bet, because when they call we no longer have the best hand. Yes we do pick up some dead money but dead money is rarely the primary reason for betting.
    • HansTheGreat
      HansTheGreat
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.02.2010 Posts: 3,807
      Originally posted by Wriggers
      We have BB's calling range waaay too lose here, also looking at his stats I doubt he is calling high cards and SC vs a cbet, he's just calling overpairs imo. If we check we actually get a lot more info. If UTG+2 bets and BB calls we can make an easy fold, if UTG+2 bets and BB folds we can make an easy call and bluffcatch.

      By betting this flop we are folding out all the hands we beat, do you really think either of them are folding any pair on this board? There are virtually no draws out there so we're just folding out high card hands that we beat, and our equity against their calling range vs a cbet on the flop isn't great at all.

      Just think, why are we betting on this flop? Because we probably have the best hand isn't a reason to make a bet, because when they call we no longer have the best hand. Yes we do pick up some dead money but dead money is rarely the primary reason for betting.
      OK you can go for a call and then what on the turn if you dont improve?Another barrel comes. Still X/C?I making the pot bigger with A high OOP and since I called the turn I should plan to also call the river. So it doesnt make sense. Well on the flop does but on later streets you dont know where are you going to stand. I can t handle good such situation. I still think that for me and my knowledge X/C flop is the worst option. OK lets give this range (9,05%):

      Board: 2:spade: 4:diamond: 4:heart:
             Equity     Win     Tie
      UTG    46.36%  40.02%   6.34% { AhQc }
      UTG+1  53.64%  47.30%   6.34% { JJ-22, AQs-ATs, KJs+, QJs, AQo-AJo, KQo }


      I think this range is fairly to say correct and given the fact that we are the PFA we also have fold equity.But dont we Cbet against his whole preflop calling range I m aware with what his continuing. If not as you can see he fold very often too a Cbet on the turn, also we raise from UTG+ and Cbet into multiway pot which looks strong move overall and he is a player that I think understands this facts. Also why not SC? we are going to be multiway which is the purpose of SC and we are both big stacked so why not join(3:1) . I think you should always add and not exclude SC in multiway pots.

      Because we probably have the best hand isn't a reason to make a bet, because when they call we no longer have the best hand.
      I wouldn t agree because UTG+2 could also call with Ax so I wouldn t say. That is why also against him I would fire also a turn barrel but a little more the 1/2 pot.
    • Wriggers
      Wriggers
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.07.2009 Posts: 3,250
      I can ask you the same question about betting. So we bet on the flop and get called, what now? We bet the turn unimproved? What is he folding on the turn that he wasn't on the flop? Since his calling range is mainly pocket pairs, the answer is: Not a lot. And since we plan to barrel the turn then we have to plan on barrelling the river? With A high?

      Regarding the SC, i'm not saying they're not in his preflop calling range, but that they're not in his flop calling range, which is what you were suggesting by saying:

      "...and against BB ranges if he calls we would need to fire again since it consist of a lot of high cards,SC and PP"

      The thin i'm trying to get at here is that we have no reason to bet. We constantly have to be asking ourselves "Why are we betting?", is it for value, a bluff, or to collect dead money? Here we can't bet for value often as it's very rare that anything worse is calling, we can't bet as a bluff as nothing better is folding (Okay, maybe 33 but that's it). Dead money is rarely a primary reason for betting, and when we have 2 opponents who don't fold often to cbets, and a very dry board where our cbet is very prone to being raised, we just don't have a reason to bet, so why would we?
    • HansTheGreat
      HansTheGreat
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.02.2010 Posts: 3,807
      Originally posted by Wriggers
      I can ask you the same question about betting. So we bet on the flop and get called, what now? We bet the turn unimproved? What is he folding on the turn that he wasn't on the flop? Since his calling range is mainly pocket pairs, the answer is: Not a lot. And since we plan to barrel the turn then we have to plan on barrelling the river? With A high?
      But in my case we have position against "better" and fold equity of course which we dont in your play. That is the main problem. I mean we you can see his stats foldtoCbet turn even he goes to showdown often he is not going to call light on the turn so we could kick out a lot of PP if we even decide to. Otherwise we are going to see 2 free cards IP. We have more freedom . Against the other player weaker player we could talk about value betting since he is loose enough to call with a lot off trash.
    • HansTheGreat
      HansTheGreat
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.02.2010 Posts: 3,807
      Really Veriz tell us your opinion here Cbet/fold or X/Call. What is going to here the better line?
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Hello Sikac,

      Check/Call for my view would be the worst line you can take here. Why should we ever Check/Call vs passive opponents who most likely wont bet without having a hand? If we do Check then we plan to Check/Fold! What are we hoping to catch with the Check/Call? Going for implied odds for our overcards?

      Now lets discuss about CBet option here:
      We are against a really loose opponent who I would tend to CB most of the time. But now is the question how to react to the tight opponent? With such play-style while not even having the smaller gap between the VPIP/PFR it could easily indicate that he also could be calling with not only PPs. But even if he does Call with PPs. Don't you think that he is capable of folding them at some point.

      So my opinion here would be I don't mind the CB just for the reason that one opponent is a loose guy who has very wide range and at the same time other guy could have just fit/Fold mode and not only PPs in his range. And even if he is calling us, we are still capable of 2nd barreling and definitely gaining a lot fold equity against the tight opponent who will have some Pps in his range which will fold to 2nd barrel or we will just hit our overcard.

      Best Regards.
    • Wriggers
      Wriggers
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.07.2009 Posts: 3,250
      If our opponents AF is really low then I would suggest c/f, however we can't really say our opponents are overly passive in this situation.

      I'm not saying cbetting is -EV here, but it's not the most +EV. Every time we are called we're behind, every time they fold we're ahead, so what exactly is the point of betting? We don't have a valid reason, and if we don't have a valid reason for betting then we just shouldn't bet.

      We can of course cbet and fold out random Kx, Qx, Jx, and suited connectors, but we're ahead of them anyway so why not check and let them bluff at an incredibly dry board? Sure they can hit their 6 outer sometimes, but that's poker, we're not playing for protection with our A high because, as BalugaWhale frequently says, we can't protect without havinga hand to protect in the first place.

      Betting "because we're the PFA and have fold equity" isn't a good enough reason to bet.