[NL20-NL50] NL50 SH. Q8s, pair + FD on the turn

    • Pkrpains
      Pkrpains
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.10.2010 Posts: 382
      Grabbed by Holdem Manager
      NL Holdem $0.50(BB) Replayer
      SB ($30.25)
      BB ($131)
      UTG ($117)
      CO ($24.75)
      Hero ($50)

      Dealt to Hero 8:diamond: Q:diamond:

      fold, fold, Hero raises to $1.50, SB calls $1.25, fold

      FLOP ($3.50) A:diamond: 8:heart: 5:club:

      SB checks, Hero bets $2, SB calls $2

      TURN ($7.50) A:diamond: 8:heart: 5:club: 2:diamond:

      SB checks, Hero bets $4, SB raises to $19.13, Hero folds


      Opponent is 42/17/1.3 AF, 17 hands

      Better to bet the turn, or to check it back? I am personally a fan of betting, as this makes life a little bit easier. After getting raised, I suppose I have close to 0 fold equity and I need 33% equity to call. Let's assume all my outs are clean, if I am right it's a pretty close spot but I still do not get the required odds? And 8's or Q's might not be clean, so this is an easy fold?

      Ty.
  • 9 replies
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      Checking back is usually better here.

      When he flats in SB and floats that flop he will usually have showdown value. Not many 8x hands left and they probably don't call a turn bet. This means when you bet you get called by Ax type hands or better so you end up turning your hand into a bluff. If you don't plan on betting river to make him fold weak Ax even when you miss you should just check and get good value on river. If he ever floated air he should bet river as a bluff when you check back and you can blufftatch on some cards. Apart from that, there are some cards that will improve his hand but make it second best. If he floated 8x, if he rivers 2pair on your flush, if completes some straight draw on your flush card. When checking you also can consider 8 and Q as a clean out if you are indeed behind when he calls flop.

      I don't get why do you think betting makes life easier though. What happens when you bet that makes it so easy to play? :)
    • Pkrpains
      Pkrpains
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.10.2010 Posts: 382
      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      I don't get why do you think betting makes life easier though. What happens when you bet that makes it so easy to play? :)
      I mean times when stubborn players float with random crap for one street, see my check back on the turn, interpret it as weakness and bet the river. Then I get lost and don't know what to do with weak made hands like 2nd pair. Their ranges of course have many top pair hands, but after I check back turn, they also have many bluffs. Like in this case, let's assume my opponent is also on flushdraw, say, K high. I check back turn, he thinks "ok, so ur weak" which would be correct to think and bluffs, for example, J on the river (no flush). And I need to make a very marginal call OR fold the best hand.

      On the other hand, they usually give up these airs if bet into on the turn, so you don't have to make a decision on the river with marginal hand. And if they call, depending on the river, you can still fire a barrel as these c/c c/c lines usually are pretty weak.
      Now the same scenario as above, but this time I bet turn myself. I usually get called, so it's value and he is not likely to just donkbet bluff the river after this particular action.

      For me personally it is way easier to put people on hands after I bet myself rather than check back and loose initiative. :) But that's just me.

      Thx for a reply btw. :)
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      If you are saying that you bet for info you should rethink your reasons.

      If by betting you force your opponent to make the correct decision you are definitely not getting MaxEV.

      In your example, if the river comes a J, T, K, 9 how often do you think he value bets those cards and how often do you think he just bets random crap? Whether you bet on the turn or call a bet on the river, you pay the same amount vs Ax. The whole point is to get more when you are ahead and make him think you are too weak. You can just check back some weaker Ax hands in this spot to strengthen your range if you think you encounter a lot of resistance.

      Like, just listen to what you are saying: If I check they will bluff and I don't want to bluffcatch with my bluffcatcher. You don't have to be 100% right in your bluffs to have better EV than when betting the turn with this type of hand.

      I'm not saying betting turn here is -EV but there are many situations where checking back here is better.
    • Pkrpains
      Pkrpains
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.10.2010 Posts: 382
      Maybe you are right. I just prefer betting than checking turn because I feel very uncomfortable in river spots I described in previous post. Therefore, usually I do what suits me better. But yeah, in this particular hand checking back is better, now I am pretty sure.

      Btw, are you playing on PartyNetwork NL25 and NL50?
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      Originally posted by Pkrpains
      Btw, are you playing on PartyNetwork NL25 and NL50?
      Yes! :) Why?
    • Pkrpains
      Pkrpains
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.10.2010 Posts: 382
      Because I do it myself and we prolly met each other at the tables. :)
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      Originally posted by Pkrpains
      Because I do it myself and we prolly met each other at the tables. :)
      Only played some NL50 today so more likely to meet at NL25 tables.
    • Pkrpains
      Pkrpains
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.10.2010 Posts: 382
      I switched fully to NL50 already, so not going to meet that much it seems :)
      What's your username there? Maybe via PM? :)
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Hello Pkrpains,

      I like the idea of CBetting the flop here cause we have a mid-air. But you have to keep in mind that those loose opponents like to play a lot of Ax hands and this board hardly hits. You should no matter what give up on turn, no 2nd barrel with extra equity, only with add-on hand 2pair+.

      Best Regards.