[NL2-NL10] NL4: 99 from SB <> BB 3bet

    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      IPoker, $0.02/$0.04 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 4 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

      BB: $10.27 (256.8 bb)
      CO: $2.84 (71 bb)
      BTN: $9.59 (239.8 bb)
      Hero (SB): $5 (125 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is SB with 9 9
      2 folds, Hero raises to $0.14, BB raises to $0.56, Hero folds

      Results: $0.28 pot
      BB mucked and won $0.28 ($0.14 net)

      Opponent's stats: VP/PFR/3bet from BB/Foldto4bet from BB/hands
      24/22/20.4(49)/33.3(3)/376

      folding this hand seems a bit on the weak side. Couldn't we just 4bet/call?
  • 13 replies
    • Kaitz20
      Kaitz20
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      Hi,

      you can always 4-bet to 1.4$ and call shove, but problem with that play is that he would only likely get all-in TT+, AK against 99 is doing quite badly:

      Hand Equity Wins Ties
      99 31.19% 146,432,664 1,932,720
      TT-AA, AK 68.81% 324,230,520 1,932,720

      So I think calling against wide 3-bettor should be a lot better option and then getting all-in for example on low boards and also continue for example on T45 boards

      board: 267
      Hand Equity Wins Ties
      99 65.57% 57,788,076 589,416
      20% 34.43% 30,199,788 589,416


      board: 26T
      Hand Equity Wins Ties
      99 57.97% 49,222,236 512,016
      20% 42.03% 35,611,668 512,016


      Best regards,
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      When the low-card board comes, do you expect us to get called/raised by worse once we check/raise?

      Should the board come as something dry like T72r can we play our hand profitably bu just simply calling one street and then folding on most turns should our opponent bet?
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Hello Avatars91,

      Against such a high 3bet and so small fold to 4bet I would just 4bet for value and go broke there. No need to flat-call with our 99, way too dangerous and way too often we are going to see overcards.

      Best Regards.
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      Would you 4bet 77-88 for value as well?
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,696
      i dont think you can 4b/call at NL4 unless u know he stacks off with AQ and some random AX or smaller PPs. Best play is to flat and play postflop. I seriously doubt that this guy can put u in tough spots, you can definitely check/call one or two streets, depending on his barreling frequencies. 125BB also makes it significantly worse for you.

      4betting when OOP is definitely much better if you are 4bet bluffing a lot and he is starting to 5bet bluff.

      For example board is A72r, I will c/c once because I expect him to bluff once and then give up.

      Board is 722A. I will c/c twice because I think he will 2barrel bluff.
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      i dont think you can 4b/call at NL4 unless u know he stacks off with AQ and some random AX or smaller PPs.


      Although the sample size is too small, but from three cases he has folded to a 4bet only once when in BB, and combined with his high 3bet % I would not be too surprised to see at least the range that you just mentioned. Of course, I am not too sure as those 2 other cases when he did not fold might just as well have been mosnters.

      But –

      For example board is A72r, I will c/c once because I expect him to bluff once and then give up. Board is 722A. I will c/c twice because I think he will 2barrel bluff.


      As much as these examples and the explanation make sense, these are obviously not the only postflop scenarios. True, a call on a dry A-high flop is not the worst and toughest spot most of the time, however, the second example you gave already gives us some problems – I would assume that there are quite a lot of Ax hands in his range (because these are great to 3bet with IP for the blocker effect) so I would have to think actually before calling that bet on the turn (depending on his bet-size it might turn out to be a rather difficult decision), our opponent would (should) also know that once we call on the flop we basically have a pocket pair and he might be willing to push AI on the river to force us out of the pot (which should work(!)). As much as I might be exaggerating our opponent's competence, there are many other difficult scenarios –

      consider these boards – 2TJs, 4Q6s Ts, 246ss aso. with multiple combinations of other ugly flops + ugly turn and river cards. The thing is – I strongly disagree that postflop play in this spot is easy.

      It would be easy if I had payed close attention to every single step my opponent has made and if I indeed had a distinct feeling for his play and betting frequencies. Would you really suggest me to call preflop without me knowing my opponent well enough to assess his range once he makes that pot-size second barrel, for example, on a K26r 7 board? Even on a 633 A board?

      Given this explanation, would it not seem that a 4bet/call (we get some fold equity even) is not only the safest and easiest approach but also the most sensible one?
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by Avatars91
      Would you 4bet 77-88 for value as well?
      With 77-88 I wouldn't do that without any specific table dynamics and more reads on the opponent. I don't like calling at all being OOP, he has the position, there will be a lot of overcards and then we will rarely know what to do in big pots. :)
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      I don't like calling at all being OOP, he has the position, there will be a lot of overcards and then we will rarely know what to do in big pots.


      I too don't like calling because of us being OOP in a 3bet pot but I must say that I am a bit confused because there seem to be different approaches / opinions among coaches here.

      Would you ever consider calling? For example, if we had some special reads or something?
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Only when I knew that he has VERY WIDE RANGE and I could practically Check/Raise almost 100% on flops for value. So a lot of dynamics is important here and not only stats, because on some sessions he might just play tighter. :)
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      Only when I knew that he has VERY WIDE RANGE and I could practically Check/Raise almost 100% on flops for value. So a lot of dynamics is important here and not only stats, because on some sessions he might just play tighter.


      1) What would you consider a very wide range for 3betting from BB against SB?

      2) Provided that the range is wide preflop, do you really check/raise close to 100% on flops for value? I mean, villain can be a loose 3better but that does by no means indicate that he is willing to invest a large part of his stack on the flop so that you can easily ch/r for value with a hand that most often than not is going to be a 2nd or 3rd pair?
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      1) What would you consider a very wide range for 3betting from BB against SB?

      There is no specific stat for that, that range must be understood by playing on the table. As I said the stat may easily vary during sessions. Dynamics are very important and the overall game-play.

      2) Provided that the range is wide preflop, do you really check/raise close to 100% on flops for value? I mean, villain can be a loose 3better but that does by no means indicate that he is willing to invest a large part of his stack on the flop so that you can easily ch/r for value with a hand that most often than not is going to be a 2nd or 3rd pair?

      Well, the problem is that there might come down a lot scare-card on the turn. Do you want to hero-call vs them for example? There can be picked different lines against different opponents. Against some I might even Check/Call 3 streets if I expect him to have a very wide range, against some I tend to Check/Raise right on the flop to balance my line with very strong hands and even bluffs.
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      Well, the problem is that there might come down a lot scare-card on the turn. Do you want to hero-call vs them for example? There can be picked different lines against different opponents. Against some I might even Check/Call 3 streets if I expect him to have a very wide range, against some I tend to Check/Raise right on the flop to balance my line with very strong hands and even bluffs.


      What is the aim of the check/raise line with pocket 99s on the flop? Depending on the board you almost always have a medium-made hand at best and unless you are up against a very very bad player you neither get better hands to fold nor do you get value from worse. Sure, you protect from overcards and draws but do you expect your opponent to continue with most of them after you check/raise a 3bet flop? Some strong draws maybe will push but even then it's not that your equity is sky-high against them. I am not saying that this line is bad, it just doesn't seem correct to call it a value line as most profit we get from this play comes from him folding hands that have outs against ours / hands that can bluff us out of the hand if we don't check/raise, and some strong draws that do get it in. Are we even happy to call after we get pushed? If you call it a value line then we are supposed to call that push getting those odds. All in all the idea of calling preflop is starting to become rather confusing to me and I think I should avoid it completely for now.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Well, if you would have read my post then you would have got from it:
      a) scare-card on turn which will be hard for us to call
      b) we want to avoid check behind on turn
      c) we want to balance our lines with bluffs as well (as long you are even asking such questions) -> on those limits we don't need to balance

      Every move in poker has a reason, and either to pick specific line it depends on the opponent. Specific boards, specific opponents, specific dynamics, specific stats make us play differently which I can't really point out here for you unfortunately cause it would take me long time to put all down here.