PLO 3-bet pre flop a trainer's opinion and help please

    • batimilen
      batimilen
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.03.2010 Posts: 37
      Hello
      I would ask for help from a trainer and advice on my problem.
      I am playing PLO.
      I have a few houndred thousands of hands behind my back.
      However I decided to put a new weapon in my arsenal 3-beting.

      My question is do I have to use the 3-bet in order to be a succesful player or I can go on without that ?

      The problem with 3-bet pre flop is that it makes it a low SPR <4
      or an ultra low SPR <1 and it takes all the skills of the game.
      There is no need to be a great player to put it all in if you hold AA or an over pair and the SPR is close to 1 or if the SPR is close to 2 or even 3and 4 still commit profitably with the bare nut flush draw even a holdem player can figure that out thre is no need to have any knowedge of omaha at all to do this.
      But how about if the SPR climbs towards 8 and we go to deep stack teritory do you still want to commit with your holdem skill and over pair or bare AA?
      What if we are in the big stacks teritory with more than 3 legitime bets left to play do you still wanna call me down with your bare nut flush draw ? Do you wanna take your 9 outs to the river ?
      I guess hodelm skills can no longer help you play omaha.
      The main drawback of 3-bet pre flop is it takes all the skills and the other one is it makes the game even more volatile which I definetely don't like.
      Of course it has it's strengths most of the time your opponent will miss the flop and will have to fold.

      But do you really have to use the 3-bet ?
      Is it an imperative technical skill to your game or it's just a matter of style and you can go on without that.

      I don't pretend to be a great player I don't even pretend to be a good a player but hey the guys I play with they really suck how do you play KKK7 on the button multy way or 2237 or maybe raise with A53Q no suit.
      Yesterday was a clear example why 3 bet removes the skills from the game.
      A raiser and a caller I was late position with a premium hand 78TJs and go for a 3 bet the stacks are deep 250bb.
      To make the long story short I will tell you that the blind went for a 4 bet putting 1/5 of his stack got called by 3 places and his commited hand on the flop held up. You wonder what he had no it's not the suspected AA
      He 4 bet with KK63 single suited and this player is playing for an year at least at more than 8 tables !!!! He still doesn't know that KK is a big hand in holdem and not an all in pre flop omaha. You don't even have to have read a book to know this one it's enough to open a poker forum and read an article.


      In one of my georgous books I have read two sentences.The writer says that 3-bet pre has become so popular in 6 max online games because it removes the skills and knowedge from the game and helps player bust their opponents on very thin margins.And this way there is no need for knowedge how to play with deep stacks and multy way pots and actually learn how to play Omaha.

      So really do you really have remove all the skill from the game by 3-bet ?


      So please give me your opinion on this problem.If I could get a proffessional judgement from not only one coach that would be great really.
  • 7 replies
    • patszerdonk
      patszerdonk
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.05.2011 Posts: 834
      I'm a PLO2 player so my comments can be ignored :)

      My reasons to 3bet:
      1. To isolate. I have JT97 double suit and decided that more +EV 3bet at some conditions.
      2. To keep BU aware that I won't let him steal 100% of my blinds.
      3. For value LDO.

      Sometimes I prefer not to 3bet even with premium/magnum AA** because "hey! if I 3bet 4/5 players will join the pot and my PE will be ~30% only...If I call I'm sure one of the dumbs will call my valuebet 3 streets"

      BTW, I also questioned the effectiveness of 3b at my level (PLO2). I think I can play with 3b = 0 without losing too much values and less swingy graph is a good compensation. I would like to know if we can play 3b =0 at PLO5 and PLO10 also.
    • ThatGuyMatt
      ThatGuyMatt
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.12.2010 Posts: 3,758
      Hey batimilen,

      I'll move this Topic over to the "Omaha Strategy Discussion" board where you will get a better response :)
    • Kyyberi
      Kyyberi
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 09.07.2010 Posts: 10,507
      You don't need to 3bet to make profit. That's a fact. But there are situations where 3betting is more +EV than just calling or folding.

      You say that it takes the skill out of the game, which tells me that you are not seeing plo as a whole yet. Proftable 3betting requires a lot of skill. Your whole question is pretty wide, I don't really know where to start or what to comment on. To keep it short, 3betting doesn't take the skill out of the game, but it's not something that you NEED to do.

      But one thing to think is how effective it is to just call when someone raises? Go to your HEM/PT, and filter out all the hands where you just call preflop. And compare it to pots where you have raised. It should show pretty well that against a lot of players, preflop initiative is pretty effective.

      Your questions about situations in different SPR's can't be answered, as it all depends on opponents and their ranges.

      You said that the problem in 3betting is that it takes all the skill out of the game. Why is that? I read your post over and over again, and I can't find any explaining on that. Even in SPR > 4 situations, you need skills to make profit. The skill is to estimate ranges, and opponent tendencies. And you should do this thinkin before the 3bet, so you know if it is profitable to 3bet or not. It seems that you think that the way to 3bet is to 3bet and blindfoldly shove any flop and hope no one hits, but that is the wrong way.

      And the reason why it is better to commit AA/KK preflop (e.g. getting SPR < 1) is to make it bullet proof profitable. Just calling and playing SPR 2-3 gives huge edge to opponent as it often leads to overplaying your overpair.

      As you have read Hwang's books, please read the LAG book too. There is pretty nice explanations and examples on 3betting.
    • JonikoP
      JonikoP
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.05.2010 Posts: 600
      I think there comes a point as you move up where if you aren't 3-betting pre-flop you will have a very tough time winning.

      A quote from Galen Cranston:

      Once you get to limits with players that have strong hand reading ability the odds of you winning much while playing very straightforward is pretty low.
    • Kyyberi
      Kyyberi
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 09.07.2010 Posts: 10,507
      I don't still think that you HAVE to 3bet? I mean, without 3betting, your ranges are even more disguised and wider. Not 3betting doesn't mean straightforward. Not at all.

      What Galen said is 100% true.
    • JonikoP
      JonikoP
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.05.2010 Posts: 600
      I'd love to get Ribbo or Roy's take on this.